[OSM-talk] We need to have a conversation about attribution

gorn osm at kub.cz
Wed Jul 24 11:07:22 UTC 2019


I beleive that OSMF will take steps to resolve this.

In fact this is exactly the point where we need strong body like OSMF 
who have funds to pay lawers to settle this down. In fact, I see this as 
one of the main reasons for OSMF existence - protection of the whole 
project.

Gorn

Dne 2019-07-24 00:55, talk-request at openstreetmap.org napsal:
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: We need to have a conversation about attribution
>       (Nuno Caldeira)
>    2. Re: We need to have a conversation about attribution (James)
>    3. Re: We need to have a conversation about attribution
>       (Nuno Caldeira)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 23:39:00 +0100
> From: Nuno Caldeira <nunocapelocaldeira at gmail.com>
> To: OSM Talk <talk at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] We need to have a conversation about
> 	attribution
> Message-ID: <90ec38e5-46e3-2d41-e50a-78e7db1a33a8 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
> 
> Months go by nothing happens. here's another example from LiveStream, a
> Vimeo service.They have a map (example, press "i"
> https://livestream.com/accounts/23202872/events/7200883 ) , asked to 
> add
> the attribution, they replied they do not use OSM tiles or data, which 
> i
> kindly asked how they had my contributions on their map. They stopped
> replying, short after saying they would investigate.
> 
> Guess what tiles they are using? Mapbox. Screenshot
> https://i.ibb.co/0njPFyy/ssdasd.jpg
> 
> Does OSMF need these corporates member that keep acting like this? Who
> are the first not complying with what the community wanted when we
> switched from CC to ODbL? Still the board hasn't replied to my request
> to terminate Facebook license
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2019-June/082653.html
> 
> Funnily, Facebook shared this today
> https://tech.fb.com/ai-is-supercharging-the-creation-of-maps-around-the-world/
> 
> As a reminder of OSMF articles
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Articles_of_Association
> 
>> 
>>     OBJECTS
>> 
>> 3. The Foundation is established for the purposes listed below:
>> 
>>     (1) encouraging the growth, development and distribution of free
>>     geospatial data; and
>>     (2) providing geospatial data for anybody to use and share.
>> 
> Are these companies encouraging the use, the growth and distribution of
> OSM, by repeatedly and after being asked several times to show the
> attribution?
> 
> Do we need to ask the board to expel those corporate members 
> (equivalent
> to associate member)?
> 
>> 18. The board may only resolve to expel a person as member or
>> associate member if, in the board's reasonable opinion, that person's
>> conduct interferes or is likely to interfere with the Foundation
>> _*achieving one or more of its objects*_.
> 
> Who's in need more of who? OpenStreetMap or these companies? this is 
> not
> acceptable and OSMF needs to act as companies, their clients clearly do
> not care when contributors contact them asking to comply. This is a
> snowball going downhill with more and more companies doing what 
> facebook
> does and not attribution and stop replying to the contributors request
> to add the attribution. Guess we or OSMF is too soft on this.
> 
> When we switch this was plain and explicit:
> *Both licenses are “By Attribution”* and “Share Alike”.
> 
>> 
>>     Can I trust the OpenStreetMap Foundation ?
>> 
>> The Foundation is "dedicated to encouraging the growth, development
>> and distribution of free geospatial data and to providing geospatial
>> data for anybody to use and share.", ( http://www.osmfoundation.org ).
>> 
>> But what happens if the Foundation is taken over by people with
>> commercial interests?
>> 
>>   * You still own the rights to any data you contribute, not the
>>     Foundation. In the new Contributor Terms, you license the
>>     Foundation to publish the data for others to use and ONLY under a
>>     free and open license.
>> 
>>   * The Foundation is not allowed to take your contribution and
>>     release it under a commercial license.
>> 
>>   * If the Foundation fails to publish under only a free and open
>>     license, it has broken its contract with you. A copy of the
>>     existing data can be made and released by a different body.
>> 
>>   * If a change is made to another free and open license, it is active
>>     contributors who decide yes or no, not the Foundation.
>> 
> from
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Historic/We_Are_Changing_The_License#What_are_the_main_differences_between_the_old_and_the_new_license.3F
> 
> 
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 18:48:35 -0400
> From: James <james2432 at gmail.com>
> To: Nuno Caldeira <nunocapelocaldeira at gmail.com>
> Cc: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list <talk at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] We need to have a conversation about
> 	attribution
> Message-ID:
> 	<CANk4qi_f86AOQ5XfwwbS5Eba9n8UOfAChE5chmNq7o9P1+dd0A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> It's kind of funny when people deny osm data as it has it's own sort
> flavour that differentiates it from google, bing, here, etc. It's 
> instantly
> recognizable.
> 
> On Tue., Jul. 23, 2019, 6:43 p.m. Nuno Caldeira, <
> nunocapelocaldeira at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Months go by nothing happens. here's another example from LiveStream, 
>> a
>> Vimeo service.They have a map (example, press "i"
>> https://livestream.com/accounts/23202872/events/7200883 ) , asked to 
>> add
>> the attribution, they replied they do not use OSM tiles or data, which 
>> i
>> kindly asked how they had my contributions on their map. They stopped
>> replying, short after saying they would investigate.
>> 
>> Guess what tiles they are using? Mapbox. Screenshot
>> https://i.ibb.co/0njPFyy/ssdasd.jpg
>> 
>> Does OSMF need these corporates member that keep acting like this? Who 
>> are
>> the first not complying with what the community wanted when we 
>> switched
>> from CC to ODbL? Still the board hasn't replied to my request to 
>> terminate
>> Facebook license
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2019-June/082653.html
>> 
>> Funnily, Facebook shared this today
>> https://tech.fb.com/ai-is-supercharging-the-creation-of-maps-around-the-world/
>> 
>> As a reminder of OSMF articles
>> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Articles_of_Association
>> 
>> OBJECTS
>> 
>> 3. The Foundation is established for the purposes listed below:
>> (1) encouraging the growth, development and distribution of free
>> geospatial data; and (2) providing geospatial data for anybody to use 
>> and
>> share.
>> 
>> Are these companies encouraging the use, the growth and distribution 
>> of
>> OSM, by repeatedly and after being asked several times to show the
>> attribution?
>> 
>> Do we need to ask the board to expel those corporate members 
>> (equivalent
>> to associate member)?
>> 
>> 18. The board may only resolve to expel a person as member or 
>> associate
>> member if, in the board's reasonable opinion, that person's conduct
>> interferes or is likely to interfere with the Foundation *achieving 
>> one
>> or more of its objects*.
>> 
>> 
>> Who's in need more of who? OpenStreetMap or these companies? this is 
>> not
>> acceptable and OSMF needs to act as companies, their clients clearly 
>> do not
>> care when contributors contact them asking to comply. This is a 
>> snowball
>> going downhill with more and more companies doing what facebook does 
>> and
>> not attribution and stop replying to the contributors request to add 
>> the
>> attribution. Guess we or OSMF is too soft on this.
>> 
>> When we switch this was plain and explicit:
>> *Both licenses are “By Attribution”* and “Share Alike”.
>> 
>> Can I trust the OpenStreetMap Foundation ?
>> 
>> The Foundation is "dedicated to encouraging the growth, development 
>> and
>> distribution of free geospatial data and to providing geospatial data 
>> for
>> anybody to use and share.", ( http://www.osmfoundation.org ).
>> 
>> But what happens if the Foundation is taken over by people with 
>> commercial
>> interests?
>> 
>>    - You still own the rights to any data you contribute, not the
>>    Foundation. In the new Contributor Terms, you license the 
>> Foundation to
>>    publish the data for others to use and ONLY under a free and open 
>> license.
>> 
>> 
>>    - The Foundation is not allowed to take your contribution and 
>> release
>>    it under a commercial license.
>> 
>> 
>>    - If the Foundation fails to publish under only a free and open
>>    license, it has broken its contract with you. A copy of the 
>> existing data
>>    can be made and released by a different body.
>> 
>> 
>>    - If a change is made to another free and open license, it is 
>> active
>>    contributors who decide yes or no, not the Foundation.
>> 
>> from
>> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Historic/We_Are_Changing_The_License#What_are_the_main_differences_between_the_old_and_the_new_license.3F
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>> 
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 23:55:21 +0100
> From: Nuno Caldeira <nunocapelocaldeira at gmail.com>
> To: James <james2432 at gmail.com>
> Cc: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list <talk at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] We need to have a conversation about
> 	attribution
> Message-ID: <fff54f99-43c5-054c-def1-38089109be8a at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
> 
> Yes it is and  when they reply:
> 
>> The Livestream Platform does not utilize the Open Street Map site or
>> any of the data that you're referring to. We have always used another
>> mapping service to integrate locations within our event and have no
>> ties to OpenStreetMap.
> And then you send a OSM History Viewer link of when you added on OSM
> with a printscreen of that same element on their website.
> 
> Às 23:48 de 23/07/2019, James escreveu:
>> It's kind of funny when people deny osm data as it has it's own sort
>> flavour that differentiates it from google, bing, here, etc. It's
>> instantly recognizable.
>> 
>> On Tue., Jul. 23, 2019, 6:43 p.m. Nuno Caldeira,
>> <nunocapelocaldeira at gmail.com <mailto:nunocapelocaldeira at gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>     Months go by nothing happens. here's another example from
>>     LiveStream, a Vimeo service.They have a map (example, press "i"
>>     https://livestream.com/accounts/23202872/events/7200883 ) , asked
>>     to add the attribution, they replied they do not use OSM tiles or
>>     data, which i kindly asked how they had my contributions on their
>>     map. They stopped replying, short after saying they would
>>     investigate.
>> 
>>     Guess what tiles they are using? Mapbox. Screenshot
>>     https://i.ibb.co/0njPFyy/ssdasd.jpg
>> 
>>     Does OSMF need these corporates member that keep acting like this?
>>     Who are the first not complying with what the community wanted
>>     when we switched from CC to ODbL? Still the board hasn't replied
>>     to my request to terminate Facebook license
>>     
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2019-June/082653.html
>> 
>>     Funnily, Facebook shared this today
>>     
>> https://tech.fb.com/ai-is-supercharging-the-creation-of-maps-around-the-world/
>> 
>>     As a reminder of OSMF articles
>>     https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Articles_of_Association
>> 
>>> 
>>>         OBJECTS
>>> 
>>>     3. The Foundation is established for the purposes listed below:
>>> 
>>>         (1) encouraging the growth, development and distribution of
>>>         free geospatial data; and
>>>         (2) providing geospatial data for anybody to use and share.
>>> 
>>     Are these companies encouraging the use, the growth and
>>     distribution of OSM, by repeatedly and after being asked several
>>     times to show the attribution?
>> 
>>     Do we need to ask the board to expel those corporate members
>>     (equivalent to associate member)?
>> 
>>>     18. The board may only resolve to expel a person as member or
>>>     associate member if, in the board's reasonable opinion, that
>>>     person's conduct interferes or is likely to interfere with the
>>>     Foundation _*achieving one or more of its objects*_.
>> 
>>     Who's in need more of who? OpenStreetMap or these companies? this
>>     is not acceptable and OSMF needs to act as companies, their
>>     clients clearly do not care when contributors contact them asking
>>     to comply. This is a snowball going downhill with more and more
>>     companies doing what facebook does and not attribution and stop
>>     replying to the contributors request to add the attribution. Guess
>>     we or OSMF is too soft on this.
>> 
>>     When we switch this was plain and explicit:
>>     *Both licenses are “By Attribution”* and “Share Alike”.
>> 
>>> 
>>>         Can I trust the OpenStreetMap Foundation ?
>>> 
>>>     The Foundation is "dedicated to encouraging the growth,
>>>     development and distribution of free geospatial data and to
>>>     providing geospatial data for anybody to use and share.", (
>>>     http://www.osmfoundation.org ).
>>> 
>>>     But what happens if the Foundation is taken over by people with
>>>     commercial interests?
>>> 
>>>       * You still own the rights to any data you contribute, not the
>>>         Foundation. In the new Contributor Terms, you license the
>>>         Foundation to publish the data for others to use and ONLY
>>>         under a free and open license.
>>> 
>>>       * The Foundation is not allowed to take your contribution and
>>>         release it under a commercial license.
>>> 
>>>       * If the Foundation fails to publish under only a free and open
>>>         license, it has broken its contract with you. A copy of the
>>>         existing data can be made and released by a different body.
>>> 
>>>       * If a change is made to another free and open license, it is
>>>         active contributors who decide yes or no, not the Foundation.
>>> 
>>     from
>>     
>> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Historic/We_Are_Changing_The_License#What_are_the_main_differences_between_the_old_and_the_new_license.3F
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     talk mailing list
>>     talk at openstreetmap.org <mailto:talk at openstreetmap.org>
>>     https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>> 
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