[OSM-talk] Persian/Arabian Gulf Tagging

Abdullah Abdulrhman abdullahOSM at outlook.com
Wed Jul 7 17:26:46 UTC 2021


This Gulf and whoever comes to it mostly comes to the countries in which it is not compared to similar water bodies such as the Pacific Ocean and other seas. The common name used in the surrounding countries must be considered, and it is not as you claim for a political motive, but rather it is a name used locally and commonly used. If you do not know this Or you decided to ignore this matter. You do not have the right to take sides with the other name and try to impose it on us. As I mentioned earlier, this proposal (imposing the Persian name) will not solve the problem but will increase it. The acceptable solutions are to put the name A/B or leave the name tag blank.

Regards
Abdullah Abdulrhman

________________________________
From: Bert -Araali- Van Opstal <bert.araali.afritastic at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 7, 2021 7:26 PM
To: talk at openstreetmap.org <talk at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Persian/Arabian Gulf Tagging


I do agree with that and it applies in most cases, and yes I have seen the previous comment. However "what people who speak that language call that place" is not practical and in many cases leads to confusion. There are many Arabian speakers outside the Arab speaking countries along the Gulf, and even as expressed here in numbers for Arab speaking communities around the Gulf. The term "Persian Gulf" and it's use as an official name exist in Arabic and very common in the past and even today, but it's a non verifiable claim. Neither one of us is in the position to determine what the majority of the Arabic speaking world uses, besides of the Arabic speaking countries and officials around the Gulf who want to impose it out of political, cultural or other motivations. That should not drive our community decision.

Here I am talking about international waters, not the territorial waters.
I believe that for the territorial waters every country, locals have the right to refer to that part, their territory with a different term in their language, what we should support in OSM as political neutrality.
Neither one of us is in the position to determine what the majority of the Arabic speaking world uses, neither as far as I know does the UN or the majority of other reputed international organisations aiming to keep political neutrality. So they remain in their maps and Geo databases at a status quo with "Persian Gulf".

Another claim that in OSM it should be verifiable depends on whoever comes along and asks who he pleases.  If I as a non native Arabic speaker ask an Arabic speaker what the "Persian Gulf" is called in his language, most probably he will answer me with "Persian Gulf", he might argue that another name is used "Arabic Gulf", but it's a different name, an alternative name.
In this case in English, the language we should use for international waters, the name is "Persian Gulf", alt_name contains "Arabic Gulf".
In Farsi the name is "Persian Gulf", alt_name contains "Arabic Gulf".
In Arabic the name is "Arabic Gulf", alt_name contains "Persian Gulf", which is inconsistent as the SAME TERM is switched from one key to the other.
Compare it with an example in f.i. German. If I ask a native German to give me the name for these waters in his language I expect an answer like:

name:de = Persischer Golf alt_name = Arabischer Golf
If I ask a different native German with Iranian origins to do the same I probably get an answer like:
name:de = Persischer Golf alt_name = Arabischer Golf
If I ask a different native German with Arabian origins to do the same I expect an answer like:
name:de = Persischer Golf alt_name = Arabischer Golf
NOT
name:de = Arabischer Golf alt_name = Persischer Golf, that's expressing a political motivated opinion which we don't accept in OSM, we are neutral.

With the above I do follow "what people who speak that language call that place", I do respect verifiability, and most of all I keep neutral on political grounds. So why should we accept otherwise in this case for Arabic ?

So name:language and it's definition "what people who speak that language call that place" is valid and applicable with one exception: the same term is available and known in that language and appears both in the name and alt_name keys. In these cases the international accepted term should prevail in the name field and the name:language fields contain it's synonym or equivalent in that language, so it comes down to a simple translation in these cases.  Switching is expressing political or cultural opinions which we should avoid at all times in OSM. We are a peacefull and non biased community. Actually we shouldn't care due to this reasoning who we make happy or not, it looks to me like non biased common sense.

Greetings,

Bert Araali

On 07/07/2021 18:12, Andy Townsend wrote:
On 07/07/2021 15:31, Bert -Araali- Van Opstal wrote:
Your proposal seems a good compromise as to use "Arabic Gulf" as the Arab name used for the name "Persian Gulf", however not compliant with our wiki instructions. The Arab "translation" in the name:ar key should be Persian Gulf written in Arab. Arab Gulf remains in the alt_name.  The wiki is clear about this, so both in Farsi as in Arab it should read Persian Gulf, no matter the cultural, political or other sensitivities.

No.

The "name:language" value should be "what people who speak that language call that place".  See for example https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/267762522 , where the various language name values aren't all simple translations.  It's been mentioned previously, but that one also has "name:en_GB" and "name:en_IE" as different values, as an example.

Best Regards,

Andy



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