[OSM-talk] Extending the 'geo:' uri scheme: Adding parameter 'osmid'

Fri Jan 6 22:28:43 UTC 2023

Sören Reinecke:
>  > way/node/relation ids in OSM are unstable, not promised to be stable
> and anything relying on their stability can break at any point
> 
> Right, I know that OSM ids are not stable. The same applies to
> coordinates too. If a restaurant puts a 'geo' link on their online pdf
> menu card with the coordinates to their shop then this is in the same
> manner unstable as osm id.

I agree. It is useful to refer to  a unique ID for an object.

And we do have some good candidates for that.

osm id's are not completely permanent. I would not use them on a website, but I have 
used them in many emails for 15 years for invitations, event announcements, 
conferences, meetups etc, without any problems at all. Because really, what are the 
chances that that public park, community center, cafe, train station will have a new 
OSM id in the next week or two?
If I have booked a meeting room at a facility, it is very unlikely that someone will 
delete it before the meeting takes place, unless the place unexpectedly closes, in 
which case it does not matter.

Wikidata tags are more stable. But there is not a wikidata ID for all OSM objects.

In Denmark, almost all restaurants, cafes, supermarkets etc has a ref:DK:cvr:pnummer 
tag which identifies a the business/branch in Denmark's Central Business Register 
(Company House for you Brits). That is a reasonable way to identify a business. The 
ref:DK:cvr:pnummer for an OSM object could change if e.g., a restaurant continues at 
the same address with new owners or even with the same beneficial owners in a new 
company.

But that is specific to each country and only work for businesses.

I am not sure how to do it elegantly with the flat OSM key/value structures.

Maybe we could maintain a list of tags that are practical permanent unique 
identifiers. And then have a tool that for most objects could generate a url (https 
or geo) that references that object using that tag.

And it could use name, id and position or a mix of those as a fallback.

> This is because how humans use coordinates.
> Coordinates are stable to the point we use them as a reference of earth
> scoped physical space only. But we use them for not just as reference
> values for physical space on earth but more likely as a estimate where
> to look for our destination. In the example the POI is a restaurant.
> Imagine the restaurant moves to another position and thus changing its
> physical position on earth. They forgot to update their 'geo' url. Now
> the geo: url still points to the same physical position on earth because
> it won't be changed by any action caused by individuals. But the feature
> of letting map apps centering their view on that geographic reference
> point is now useless because the user cannot find the POI there anymore.
> 
> To sum up: Coordinates can be used in the same wrong way as OSM id as
> they're both not sufficient enough for the use case most people are
> using it (indirectly). Coordinates are already part of the 'geo' URI
> scheme. There is no visible reason to me why adding another unstable
> identifier like the osm id is a bad idea. As long as OSM ids are used in
> a dynamic and not in a hardcoded way and proberly updated by the tools
> people are using to retrieve these data (e.g. Overpass, Sophox or
> end-user apps like OrganicMaps) 'geo' uris are always generated by
> tools. If some does that manually then this person is in charge to
> change that when the physical position of the POI changes too. People
> tend to forget about these little urls as long as they don't see a GUI
> (graphical user interface) connected to it like a map on their website.
> 
> On 04/01/2023 13:28, Marc_marc wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Le 02.01.23 à 18:57, Sören Reinecke a écrit :
>>> It allows (web) developers to direct their users to their map browser
>>> of use e.g, Organic Maps, Google Maps, Apple Maps
>>
>> if it allow to open an osm editor from an "osm datauser app",
>> that look fine.
>> for ex I use Organic Maps, I see an error or an improvement for a POI,
>> it allow me to open Vespuccci with that object.
>>
>> could the iD of the object have changed between the data of the "user"
>> app and the osm database used by the "editor" app ?
>> of course it may.
>> in the same way that this iD could have changed between an osmose
>> analysis and the moment I click on edit to open it in josm.
>> In this case, it's not serious, it will be enough to find the
>> object in the editor.
>> this does not change the fact that it is much easier than opening
>> an area, loading the area, zooming, finding the object and finally
>> selecting it in the 99.999% of cases where the iD has not changed
>>
>> Regards,
>> Marc
>>
>>
>>
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> 
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-- 
Niels Elgaard Larsen