[OSM-dev] surveillance cams not shown in any render

D Tucny d at tucny.com
Fri Dec 12 14:42:14 GMT 2008

2008/12/12 Eddy Petrișor <eddy.petrisor at gmail.com>

> 2008/12/12 80n <80n80n at gmail.com>:
> > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Eddy Petrișor <eddy.petrisor at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> 2008/12/11 Shaun McDonald <shaun at shaunmcdonald.me.uk>:
> >> >
> >> > On 11 Dec 2008, at 19:48, Ulf Lamping wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Eddy Petrișor schrieb:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Solution 1: add an extra tag traffic which can be "yes" for such
> >> >>> cameras
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Solution 2: new value for man_made:  man_made="traffic_surveillance"
> >> >>> for such cameras
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >> Solution 3: Use highway=speed_camera which is already used ~500 times
> >> >> and also will show up at least in JOSM.
> >> >
> >> > Real solution: use a custom rendering of the map data:
> >> > http://osm.vdska.de/
> >>
> >> Why would I prefer to use a custom rendering instead of clarifying the
> >> tags, usage and quirks and push for rendering support in Mapnik and
> >> Osmarender?
> >
> > Speed cameras did used to be rendered in Osmarender.  Not sure whether it
> > has been removed deliberately (some people are opposed to helping
> motorists
> I am not clear how marking cameras *is* helping people break the law.
> They rather help them *not* break the law.
> At least here in Romania, such cameras are marked as present at the
> entry in the area where they are present, so the only help is to
> pinpoint the location, instead of being aware of an area.

I'm sorry, but... The speed limit doesn't only apply where cameras are
located... Marking speed cameras doesn't help people not break the law, it
would only help people avoid being caught for breaking the law...

> Personally I find myself slightly speeding (up to 5-7km/h more than
> legal) occasionaly in villages or hamlets, since the legal speed
> (50km/h) is between gears, but I am extra-careful in the surveilled
> areas in order not to get fined accidentally.

I'm sure you have many gears that cover speeds below 50km/h... The reality
of it is that you, like many drivers, prefer to drive a little faster... The
legal speed limit is 50km/h, it doesn't mean you have to drive 50km/h, it
means you must not exceed 50km/h...

> I know that technically/legally I am speeding, but technically, the
> tachometers could have errors and practically my speeding could be
> compensated by good reaction time, while somebody else, even under
> legal speed limit might not have that skill.

You are right, your speedometer could be inaccurate and while you think you
are speeding, it may be that the real speed is lower... But... It could also
be that the real speed is higher if errors are present...

I agree also that someone with good reaction times and good driving skills
could be safer at a higher speed than someone with slower reaction times
and/or poor driving skills... but... the law is the law... It doesn't make
you less guilty of speeding if you are a good driver... But, it might make
the difference between being charged with speeding and dangerous or careless

> What I am trying to say is that the the legal speed limit is an
> artificial way to keep accidents under control, but since I am careful
> even when I speeding, the goal is achieved anyway, and I think *that*
> is the important part.

Whatever anyone's feelings on what a law is supposed to be for and how that
should or should not affect them is really irrelevant when it comes to
mapping... (almost back on topic here ;)) If you want to lobby for the laws
to be changed, you a free to go chase that... but... OSM is about the
data... Recording the speed limit on a road will help people avoid breaking
the law (if they have that data available to them while driving on the
road)... Recording where safety/speed/control/enforcement/whatever else type
of cameras are could be useful to people who want to speed but don't want to
get caught... But... I don't feel it has a place on the standard map...

> > break the law) or accidentally (never attribute to malice...).
> I always thought that the Mapnik render was a render for general
> usage, but slightly biased toward driving and pedestrian usage. That's
> way I thought it would be appropriate for cameras to be rendered in
> Mapnik and Osmarender.

Many features are valuable to everyone... Many features are valuable to
some... Some features appear on the map... Location of speed cameras
wouldn't in my opinion be of use to law abiding citizens... Marking of speed
limit changes would be more useful I feel...

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