[OSM-dev] surveillance cams not shown in any render

Eddy Petrișor eddy.petrisor at gmail.com
Fri Dec 12 15:09:01 GMT 2008

2008/12/12 D Tucny <d at tucny.com>:
> 2008/12/12 Eddy Petrișor <eddy.petrisor at gmail.com>
>> 2008/12/12 80n <80n80n at gmail.com>:
>> > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Eddy Petrișor <eddy.petrisor at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> 2008/12/11 Shaun McDonald <shaun at shaunmcdonald.me.uk>:
>> >> >
>> >> > On 11 Dec 2008, at 19:48, Ulf Lamping wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Eddy Petrișor schrieb:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Solution 1: add an extra tag traffic which can be "yes" for such
>> >> >>> cameras
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Solution 2: new value for man_made:
>> >> >>>  man_made="traffic_surveillance"
>> >> >>> for such cameras
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Solution 3: Use highway=speed_camera which is already used ~500
>> >> >> times
>> >> >> and also will show up at least in JOSM.
>> >> >
>> >> > Real solution: use a custom rendering of the map data:
>> >> > http://osm.vdska.de/
>> >>
>> >> Why would I prefer to use a custom rendering instead of clarifying the
>> >> tags, usage and quirks and push for rendering support in Mapnik and
>> >> Osmarender?
>> >
>> > Speed cameras did used to be rendered in Osmarender.  Not sure whether
>> > it
>> > has been removed deliberately (some people are opposed to helping
>> > motorists
>> I am not clear how marking cameras *is* helping people break the law.
>> They rather help them *not* break the law.
>> At least here in Romania, such cameras are marked as present at the
>> entry in the area where they are present, so the only help is to
>> pinpoint the location, instead of being aware of an area.
> I'm sorry, but... The speed limit doesn't only apply where cameras are
> located... Marking speed cameras doesn't help people not break the law, it
> would only help people avoid being caught for breaking the law...

The fact that there is a law doesn't make it a good, fair or even
useful law (see law about liquids in planes which prevented me from
taking a deodorant spray on a trip for a job interview), but I'll stop
here with the OT issue.

>> Personally I find myself slightly speeding (up to 5-7km/h more than
>> legal) occasionaly in villages or hamlets, since the legal speed
>> (50km/h) is between gears, but I am extra-careful in the surveilled
>> areas in order not to get fined accidentally.
> I'm sure you have many gears that cover speeds below 50km/h... The reality
> of it is that you, like many drivers, prefer to drive a little faster... The
> legal speed limit is 50km/h, it doesn't mean you have to drive 50km/h, it
> means you must not exceed 50km/h...

There is also a law that says that you shouldn't drive too slow that
you impede traffic, without a valid reason.

As I said, laws are not a substitute for common sense, usefulness, morality.

>> What I am trying to say is that the the legal speed limit is an
>> artificial way to keep accidents under control, but since I am careful
>> even when I speeding, the goal is achieved anyway, and I think *that*
>> is the important part.
> Whatever anyone's feelings on what a law is supposed to be for and how that
> should or should not affect them is really irrelevant when it comes to
> mapping... (almost back on topic here ;)) If you want to lobby for the laws

Well, back to mapping, that area is *legally* marked as surveilled, so
I don't see
a really *significant* difference between what the terrain offers or
what the map
would offer (except that it would pinpoint where that cam was seen at some point
in time, but that could change at a later time - still it should be
marked as such).

After all, the law (here) says that such check points must not be
intentionally hidden or blend into the background in order to "catch"
more people.

> to be changed, you a free to go chase that... but... OSM is about the
> data... Recording the speed limit on a road will help people avoid breaking

The data here is that there is a legally marked traffic surveillance
cam and I would
appreciate it be added to the data set. After all, I don't think it
says anywhere that the
data must (not) have some special meaning.

If that data is also rendered by default, that would be nice and I
would appreciate it.
If not, too bad.

> of cameras are could be useful to people who want to speed but don't want to
> get caught... But... I don't feel it has a place on the standard map...

Then why is this info *ALREADY* marked/signaled on the field?

>> > break the law) or accidentally (never attribute to malice...).
>> I always thought that the Mapnik render was a render for general
>> usage, but slightly biased toward driving and pedestrian usage. That's
>> way I thought it would be appropriate for cameras to be rendered in
>> Mapnik and Osmarender.
> Many features are valuable to everyone... Many features are valuable to
> some... Some features appear on the map... Location of speed cameras
> wouldn't in my opinion be of use to law abiding citizens... Marking of speed

Is your right to believe that the world is ideal, all laws are just
and there are no

> limit changes would be more useful I feel...

That doesn't change the fact that such cameras *are* already legally signaled.

"Imagination is more important than knowledge" A.Einstein

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