[HOT] Launching the hot mailing list in French

Michael Collinson mike at ayeltd.biz
Fri Jul 11 11:01:14 UTC 2014

As mentioned, I create the OSM lists, so I hope these neutral 
observations help the discussion:

Yes, indeed the OSM list system works in as loose and free-wheeling 
manner as possible along the support-but-not-control mission of the 
OSMF.  So unless I can think of a really strong reason, I just go ahead 
and create whatever list is requested provided that it is in some way 
OSM-related and that it is free for anyone to join and participate 
subject to etiquette guidelines.  I may nudge and suggest a bit, for 
example a better name or pointing out a potential overlap with another 
list, but that is all. To my recollection, I've only sought board 
guidance once. For OSM Just Do It ethos, it works well.

However, I can see a number of reasons why a little time for HOT to 
discuss and have a good collective strategy is a good thing:

1) We (OpenStreetMap) do draw a firm distinction between OSM and OSMF, 
i.e. a broad community with fuzzy membership and a, well, bureaucratic 
organisation with with specific finite membership. In line with that, 
our osmf-* lists are only generated after broader discussion and may 
involve board sanction.  Should HOT reflect that distinction in some way?

2) When OpenStreetMap started, we did not explicitly consider branding. 
So it is not always clear what "OpenStreetMap" refers to. That can be a 
good thing, someone starts a weird project, it turns out to be useful 
and is absorbed into the OSM universe. But it can be a bad thing if 
someone represents themselves to governmental or commercial 
organisations in a way that might be damaging to the overall project. 
So, having a discussion over about some control over who and how folks 
can use the word "HOT" or "Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team" is worth having?

3) OSM lists on https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo**are easy. HOT 
lists have an extra layer in that they are effectively being hosted by a 
sister organisation that HOT has no control over. Should HOT have any 
ground rules that I can be guided by?


On 10/07/2014 15:26, Severin Menard wrote:
> Hi Heather,
> I am a bit surprised by your reaction, it seems you do not know well 
> how the OSM lists work. Any group can ask OSMF (Mike Collinson is in 
> charge of this) to create one, about a specific topic and/or a 
> specific location. Here is the whole list of OSM talk lists: 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/ for you to figure out.
> As you can see, there are very specific lists like eg 
> Talk-gb-oxoncotswolds for Oxford, Oxfordshire and the Cotswolds in GB 
> or Talk-it-trentino for the Trentino in Italy. These lists have been 
> created by locals or people specifically interested in these regions; 
> creating it does not require the permission of an "upper list" that 
> would be the country one or the general talk list (without suffix). 
> Regarding your background, you could eg create an OSM-Ushahidi list to 
> discuss about the interactions between OSM and Ushahidi (and this 
> would not be a bad idea at all), knowing that many people would join.
> Are you really suggesting setting a public, open OSM list allowing a 
> potential +200 million people to raise their voices on humanitarian 
> and development topics should have been decided by a board or people 
> outside them? Or that we should make a general survey (in English) to 
> state if Spanish, French, Portuguese or Swahili speakers will be 
> allowed or not to have a list in their language? This does not fit 
> with OSM. This hot list in French is actually something that is in the 
> minds and wished for years.
> Otherwise I do take care about communicating about this when it 
> starts, this is the aim of my message, so that this larger (I mean 
> larger because many could not participate before in hot discussions 
> and now will join) community (and not separated communities) can 
> collaborate efficiently.
> Hope these points are more clear for you.
> Sincerely,
> Severin
> On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 1:39 PM, Heather Leson 
> <heather.leson at hotosm.org <mailto:heather.leson at hotosm.org>> wrote:
>     Sev, it would have been great to talk in person before setting up
>     a separate HOT list and community process.
>     For example, this was already a topic for the upcoming Board
>     meeting and definitely something we want to do right by really
>     consulting with the HOT community.
>     While I appreciate your initiative, collaboration and community
>     means communicating.
>     I'll be following up on this in the coming month.
>     Thank you
>     Heather
>     On Jul 10, 2014 7:33 AM, "Severin Menard"
>     <severin.menard at gmail.com <mailto:severin.menard at gmail.com>> wrote:
>         Hi,
>         There is a openstreetmap.org <http://openstreetmap.org> hot
>         list now for French speaking people who do not have enough
>         English to participate to the hot (English) list, and they are
>         numerous not only in France (I think well-known to be one of
>         the worst English speaking countries :) but also in Africa and
>         in the Caribbeans. This would allow people from various OSM
>         communities especially in developing countries, to raise their
>         voices and interact more (or quicker, because basically
>         writing in foreign language takes more time) with the HOT/OSM
>         community regarding the humanitarian and development topics.
>         So far, when we wanted to interact on these topics in French,
>         we had to make emails with a long list of talk-country lists,
>         which is not really appropriate as it duplicates the same
>         messages in various talk lists.
>         This already exists for the dev lists: dev is in English by
>         default, and there is a French and an Italian one. As I guess
>         (I did not check) they do, there will be interactions between
>         the lists when it seems useful after a brainstorm, around an
>         action, a methodology or a new "discovery"; the people that
>         can interact in the two languages can bridge the lists. If
>         someone has experience on this, please tell.
>         I would suggest the Spanish native speakers from the HOT
>         community to create also a list as the community of native
>         Spanish speakers in the world is twice more numerous than
>         French. It would help during crisis like the ones in Bolivia
>         or in Chile last year.
>         For the suffix, a quick survey showed that a huge majority
>         preferred hot-francophone rather than hot-fr or hot-francais,
>         basically because it states clearly it is about the language
>         and not the country of origin, and this does count, especially
>         for the people from former French colonies.
>         For those interested, you can subscribe here:
>         https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot-francophone
>         I translated the description from English, just added a bit at
>         the end because the English text only talks about crisis
>         response, and does not mention development, what should be
>         rectified. The translation in English would be: "Apart from
>         crisis response, the list helps HOT to prepare resources and
>         improve its response, but also to discuss and set an OSM map
>         for development. For this as well, stakeholders and population
>         can send messages on the list (questions, opinions, requests,
>         discussions...)".
>         Sincerely,
>         Severin
>         _______________________________________________
>         HOT mailing list
>         HOT at openstreetmap.org <mailto:HOT at openstreetmap.org>
>         https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
> _______________________________________________
> HOT mailing list
> HOT at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

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