[HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!

Severin Menard severin.menard at gmail.com
Tue Apr 28 12:16:15 UTC 2015


Yes

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 12:15 PM, john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On the wiki page it refers to *"JOSM Style 'HOT-OSM-Validation'"* does
> this refer to the HDM style?
>
> Thanks John
>
> On 28 April 2015 at 06:44, Severin Menard <severin.menard at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> NIck and I made this wikipage about it:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Tasking_Manager/Validating_data
>>
>> I should actually update it a bit. In CAR for exemple, everytime a job
>> and task validation is done (the latter may not be finished, depending on
>> the motivation of mappers), I unpublish the job, download the whole area
>> and make a first quick check to identify areas where tasks were not
>> correctly done. If it took a long time to fix, I unvalidate these tasks and
>> republish the job.
>> Once everything is quite OK, I repeat the same process and
>> - clean everything with the validator
>> - add mssing objects
>> - improve the data consistency (especially the road network)
>> - improve the tag consistency (again, especially the road network,
>> according to the agreed scheme)
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Severin
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 10:16 AM, Pierre Béland <pierzenh at yahoo.fr>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Like we started yesterday, we need various ways to validate the data.
>>> Not only via the Task Manager. Yes, global validation are a good way to do
>>> it. We started to do for roads. If you think of other ways to validate,
>>> please do.
>>>
>>> I also asked previously for monitoring tools to better follow such huge
>>> activations. After this activation, we should make an evaluation and assure
>>> we develop appropriate tools to support such activations.
>>>
>>>
>>> Pierre
>>>
>>>   ------------------------------
>>>  *De :* Severin Menard <severin.menard at gmail.com>
>>> *À :* "hot at openstreetmap.org" <hot at openstreetmap.org>
>>> *Envoyé le :* Mardi 28 avril 2015 6h04
>>> *Objet :* Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> We could also make slightly evolve the Tasking Manager and create an
>>> "experienced mapper" privileges status who would be required to have access
>>> to the validate/unvalidate steps and can promote any other mapper to this
>>> status, because she/he knowsher/him and trust her/his skills. The rest of
>>> the mappers (supposedly beginners) could map only the non validated task
>>> (as they should supposedly do). Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Severin
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Chia-liang Kao <clkao at clkao.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Fellow mappers,
>>>
>>> Maintaining quality with large number of inexperienced mappers is a
>>> critical issue.  However I think that open and inclusiveness is what makes
>>> OSM and HOT great, and we should work on accommodating newbies with better
>>> community support or technical improvement to make tools more fool-proof,
>>> and figure out under what circumstance we wish to tell people to refrain
>>> from contributing.
>>>
>>> Heather already started drafting training support.  When we circulate
>>> the tasks to the public, we make sure there's localized tutorial and a link
>>> to local community's group for newbies to find help.  People also wanted to
>>> create screencast for specific tasks.
>>>
>>> As a lot of people get to know HOT/OSM for the first time during
>>> disasters, it might be also helpful if we can draft an HOT FAQ (I actually
>>> couldn't find one, please enlighten me if there's already one) for some
>>> common critics, so people won't be scared away because they are to
>>> participate in a project others criticize:
>>>
>>> - Are the maps actually being used?
>>> - If this is used in critical mission, what happens when it's wrong or
>>> incomplete?
>>> - What's the point for tracing from pre-disaster imagery?
>>>
>>> Personally I am awkwardly glad that Naysayers outside our community
>>> switched from "No one is going to use your stuff, you shouldn't do it" to
>>> "People's life are at stake because the maps are in actual use, you
>>> shouldn't do it".  But in any case we do need to tackle the issue seriously
>>> to make HOT even more awesome.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> clkao
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 1:20 PM Pete Masters <pedrito1414 at googlemail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> This is one of the main things I want to discuss with people at the HOT
>>> Summit this week and a central issue for Missing Maps. If it is of interest
>>> to any of you, please find me in DC or drop me a line...
>>>
>>> Pete
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 5:33 AM, Heather Leson <heatherleson at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks everyone. Pierre, your story about new people improving is great.
>>> I know many of us started during an emergency.
>>>
>>> For our dear friend and fellow mapper, Ralph. Thank you. I know I was
>>> firm last night, but waking this morning (Doha) I really think you are
>>> right that we need to improve new mapper onboarding during emergencies. So,
>>> I started another email chain about training help.
>>>
>>> Step by step,
>>>
>>> heather
>>>
>>> Heather Leson
>>> heatherleson at gmail.com
>>> Twitter: HeatherLeson
>>> Blog: textontechs.com
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 2:37 AM, Pierre Béland <pierzenh at yahoo.fr>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>> This remembers such experiences for the Ebola outbreak. With a long
>>> Activation, we saw contributors that did improve rapidly and did a great
>>> job. They were in the top list of contributors.
>>>
>>> This is social gathering, and we have to take care to accompany well the
>>> new contributors.
>>>
>>> I did make some comments over the last year about improvements to make
>>> to our monitoring tools. We should surely continue to look at this and
>>> assure we have the possibility to both keep our reactivity and produce
>>> quality mapping.
>>>
>>> regard
>>>
>>>
>>> Pierre
>>>
>>>   ------------------------------
>>>  *De :* Andrew Buck <andrew.r.buck at gmail.com>
>>> *À :* hot at openstreetmap.org
>>> *Envoyé le :* Lundi 27 avril 2015 19h21
>>> *Objet :* Re: [HOT] AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!
>>>
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>> I understand the frustration.  Some times the newbies do very bad, but
>>> some produce very good data as well.  One thing that we can also do is
>>> load large sections of the country in JOSM with the 'mirrored
>>> download' plugin.  You can then scan over a large area and just check
>>> the roads for major problems like you mention.  Even just a few people
>>> doing this every now and then makes a huge difference.
>>>
>>> Remember, the tasking manager is not the only way we have to map.
>>> Experienced people can work on their own, as long as they are mindful
>>> of what they are doing and try a bit to avoid causing conflicts for
>>> other mappers.
>>>
>>> - -AndrewBuck
>>>
>>>
>>> On 04/27/2015 10:25 AM, AYTOUN RALPH wrote:
>>> > If I don't scream I will end up tearing my hair out. We need to
>>> > change what we are doing and who we are letting in to do it. These
>>> > Activations in response to a disaster means that people's lives
>>> > are at stake here. I am finding totally inexperienced mappers (some
>>> > with no completed tiles and others with only one or two completed
>>> > tiles) messing around with validating tiles or unlocking already
>>> > validated tiles and working on them. I have a screen shot of Nepal
>>> > #944 showing 5 validated tiles are actively locked. When I checked
>>> > on the people that were doing this they were complete beginners. I
>>> > have had one of the tiles I had completed opened by one of these
>>> > beginners and started adding short little sections of disconnected
>>> > roads (The instructions specifically ask us not to add these) then
>>> > validating this tile, then invalidating it again. While I am all in
>>> > favour of getting new mappers up and going this should only be done
>>> > on the Missing Maps project and not on HOT Activations. It is
>>> > extremely important that we get it right as quickly as possible for
>>> > those people out in the field with injured and dead all around them
>>> > and lives at stake for us to be rechecking already validated tiles
>>> > because we can no longer trust them to be correct or near to
>>> > correct. We have already had complaints about poor quality work in
>>> > the past and this type of activity is not going to get us any
>>> > better credibility. We really need to rethink the "open to all"
>>> > policy for HOT Activations. I am now looking at #944 which shows
>>> > 63% Validated right now and there is two more Validated tiles that
>>> > are actively locked. I no longer trust the Green marked tiles as
>>> > being checked and cleared. I know that the majority of what we are
>>> > producing will be of some assistance in the hills of Nepal but can
>>> > also imagine the frustration of those people with some of the
>>> > nonsense I have managed to clean up while validating. OK. Rant
>>> > over. I will be sending out messages to all the new mappers I have
>>> > identified asking them to only work on the white tiles and not to
>>> > open any of the orange or green ones until they have a lot more
>>> > experience. Sorry to have interrupted you in the middle of this
>>> > crisis but felt that this needed to be said. Ralph (RAytoun)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________ HOT mailing list
>>> > HOT at openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>> >
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> HOT mailing list
>>> HOT at openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> HOT mailing list
>>> HOT at openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *Pete Masters*
>>> Missing Maps Project Coordinator
>>> +44 7921 781 518
>>>
>>> missingmaps.org <http://www.missingmaps.org/>
>>>
>>> *@pedrito1414* <https://twitter.com/TheMissingMaps>
>>> *@theMissingMaps* <https://twitter.com/TheMissingMaps>
>>> *facebook.com/MissingMapsProject*
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/MissingMapsProject>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>> HOT mailing list
>>> HOT at openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> HOT mailing list
>>> HOT at openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> HOT mailing list
>>> HOT at openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> HOT mailing list
>> HOT at openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>
>>
>
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