[HOT] Request for information about common set of tags for HOT (Was: OSM Nepal Reponse - Links to various infos)

Stefan Keller sfkeller at gmail.com
Tue May 19 22:21:20 UTC 2015


Hi Spring, hi HOT team members

This is not a critique of OSM tagging in general but about the
inexistence of documentation and the lack of
coordination/communication regarding tags used specifically in HOT.
With this thread I want to address HOT team members and experienced
HOT contributors.
I hope that this time they take the time to respond and act.

If you, Spring, want to help OSM I have a document for you from my
Osmaxx project which you could review from a GIS perspective (it will
be publicly available soon on github. In the meantime I'll send it to
you directly).

Cheers, Stefan


2015-05-19 21:38 GMT+02:00 Springfield Harrison <stellargps at gmail.com>:
> Hello Stefan & Blake,
>
> I concur with the comments about the "tag soup" mess.  As I have mentioned
> before, I am new to this OSM environment but have some years experience with
> GPS and GIS mapping and database design.
>
> To be honest, I was appalled when I discovered that the OSM database design
> looked like a glorified scratchpad.  I just downloaded and inspected 366,017
> OSM database records.  There were 18 Key Terms and scores of values.  I
> extracted the unique combinations of keys/values and ended up with 388
> records of those.
>
> It is difficult to describe the results in detail as patterns are very hard
> to see with this system.  Suffice it to say, there is an abundance of
> overlap, redundancy, ambiguity and a confusing intermingling of features and
> attributes.  Using traditional methods of querying a database, it would be
> impossible to definitively extract a meaningful subset of any of the 366,000
> records.  Generally speaking, the problem is that one feature may be
> described in many different ways that are not consistent.
>
> Having said all that, since I frequently hear how well all this mapping
> information is received in the field, I must conclude that this mishmash of
> tagging somehow creates a usable end product.  It may well be that I am not
> aware of magic techniques that bring order to all this chaotic tagging.
> However, if it works, it is good.  However I do believe that it will work
> better with a more robust database.
>
> Sorry to offer this harsh critique, but in decades of looking at database
> structures for both geographical and administrative applications, I have
> never seen such a jumble of terminology.
>
> Anyway, I have put together what I believe is a more appropriate Data
> Dictionary that generally parallels the best practices in database design.
> I have found this approach to be very useful, and also useful in the field,
> since being introduced to it by Trimble Navigation in the early 90s.
>
> I am impressed with the enthusiasm that permeates the crowd GIS initiative
> but concerned that the geographical and database underpinnings may be less
> than ideal.  My observation from creating a few software applications, is
> that the lesser trained are the users, the much greater investment there
> needs to be in the user interface and training.  GIS and GPS data collection
> is not particularly intuitive.
>
> My approach in projects of this kind is always to start at the far end with
> the users - what information are they wanting for whatever it is that they
> do?  Then I look at the reporting requirements and finally design the data
> collection process to feed into that.
>
> In the case of this emergency relief operation, I'm hard-pressed to see the
> value in mapping video games, hairdresser, gymnastics, karate and
> volleyball.  To be fair, many of the other attributes could have value in
> providing relief services but in the record set that I downloaded, there
> seems to be little information related to the emergency relief effort.  In
> over 366,000 records there are only 19 marked as aeroway = helipad.
>
> I'm not sure just how thorough you intend to be with the "updating,
> streamlining and regularizing" but I would be happy to help where possible.
>
> It would probably not be overly difficult to substitute a new
> feature/attribute catalogue into the OSM database.  Translating the existing
> mass of keys and values to their new equivalent might be more challenging.
> Databases succeed because they conform to standard pattern sets.
>
> Again, sorry to be less than enthusiastic but perhaps things can be
> improved.
>
>         Thanks for your patience, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison
>
>
>
>
> At 17-05-2015 08:29 Sunday, Stefan Keller wrote:
>>
>> Hi Blake Many thanks for your clarifications. 2015-05-15 22:13 GMT+02:00
>> Blake Girardot <bgirardot at gmail.com> wrote/a écrit: ... > We would welcome
>> any assistance with updating, streamlining and regularizing > HOT's tagging
>> and tagging guidance and underlying data model if need be. I'd like to help
>> and my proposal is 1. to collect and identify most common tags specific to
>> HOT 2. to mention and document them in Wiki page "Humanitarian_OSM_Tags" [1]
>> So, to begin collecting the candidates, I only foumd these two: *
>> damage:event=* * operator:type=private • goveernment • community The
>> "idp:camp_site=spontaneous_campp" is already sub-specific to a disaster
>> event. Any others tag or key candidates? Yours, S. [1]
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Tags 2015-05-15 22:13
>> GMT+02:00 Blake Girardot <bgirardot at gmail.com>: > > Hi Stefan, > > HOT (and
>> OSM) tagging has grown and evolved since we first started 5 or 6 > years ago
>> that is for sure. And given the somewhat intermittent > participatory nature
>> of OSM and the wiki things can for sure get out of > sync. > > We would
>> welcome any assistance with updating, streamlining and regularizing > HOT's
>> tagging and tagging guidance and underlying data model if need be. It > is a
>> big project for the folks in and out of HOT who developed and maintain > it.
>> > > It was through gentle ;) feedback from the OSM community that we have >
>> started use some more planned tagging schemes you mentioned so there is yet
>> > time for some of that to catch up. > > I am excited for us to roll up our
>> sleeves and give the tagging, guidance, > data model and rendering a timely
>> review and updating. At the moment many in > HOT are concentrating on
>> working with our fellow travelers in Nepal (and DRC > and Vanuatu and Guam
>> and South Sudan and Nigeria and several other places > unfortunately), but
>> when that begins to thankfully be less of an urgent > matter several of us
>> look forward to joining you fully in the process. > > And like I said, any
>> reorganization or updating and streaming in the wiki > you could help us
>> with in the mean time will be very welcome and > appreciated. If you have
>> any questions please just ask them here on the > mailing list but under a
>> different email thread so it is less confusing > talking about something
>> that has nothing to do with this thread. > > Cheers, > Blake > > > On
>> 5/15/2015 8:43 PM, Stefan Keller wrote: >> >> Salut Pierre, hi Will, dear
>> leading HOT members, hello all >> >> 2015-05-15 18:44 GMT+02:00 Pierre
>> Béland <pierzenh at yahoo.fr >> <mailto:pierzenh at yahoo.fr>> wrote: >> >>> Such
>> a response has brought various discussions on the HOT list on how to >>>
>> both respond quickly and assure data quality. >> >> >> I really appreciate
>> your work and the work of all contributors. So >> excuse me if I'm little
>> bit too harsh now. >> >> I'm trying to to collect the minimal common set of
>> HOT tags for >> specifying a renderer, for future use and for OSM quality in
>> general. >> >> Will already answered finally in an earlier post (thanks!) -
>> but I'm >> sorry to say: What we (OSM) now have in HOT pages is a tag mess
>> since >> years! >> >> Please correct me if I'm wrong. Perhaps there a
>> process on tagging >> mailing list I'm missing? Here's what I found: >> >>
>> To me the potential main HOT tag page is "Humanitarian_OSM_Tags" [1]. >>
>> This page is very "orphaned" - it has been edited twice since 2013(!?). >>
>> It prominently points to "Humanitarian_Data_Background" as "An >> up-to-date
>> list of tags for HOT" - being a page which has been updated >> 3.5 years ago
>> (!?). >> >> Then I see that no single wiki page with Nepal in its title -
>> including >> "2015_Nepal_earthquake" [3] - is pointing to
>> Humanitarian_OSM_Tags, >> whereas the Nepal_remote_mapping_guide [4] mainly
>> lists the usual main >> tags (like building=yes, natural=wood|water,
>> water=*, waterway=river, >> waterway=stream, landuse=farmland). >> >> I
>> would expect at least to see tags like damage:event and idp:camp_site >> -
>> being top 20 in [6] - to show up in any wiki page related to tags >>
>> mentioned above. >> But these aren't even mentioned in the wiki except
>> somehow in [4] - but >> which was declared outdated 2013. >> >> How can we
>> clean up this under-documented mess and "tag soup" at least >> for a small
>> common set of tags? >> >> Yours, S. >> >> [1]
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Tags  >> [2] >> >>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Tags/Humanitarian_Data_Background
>> >> [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/2015_Nepal_earthquake  >> [4]
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nepal_remote_mapping_guide#Tagging  >>
>> [5] >> >>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Tags/Humanitarian_Data_Model
>> >> [6] http://nepal-taginfo.openstreetmap.hu/keys >> >>  >> 2015-05-15 18:44
>> GMT+02:00 Pierre Béland <pierzenh at yahoo.fr >> <mailto:pierzenh at yahoo.fr>>:
>> >> >> >>    This OSM response for Nepal is quite challenging. And even more
>> >>    difficult for our friends at the Kathmandu Living Labs (KLL) who >>
>> have to suffer the emotional impact of the second earthquake this >>
>> week. They also have to move from the famous Yellow house to a >>    school.
>> This should assure them a more secure area to work. >>    Cheers to them
>> that maintain the Nepal earthquake Ushahidi map, >>    provide various
>> mapping services to the humanitarian in the field >>    and assure the
>> interface with the Nepal governement and the various >>    UN Coordination
>> structures for this response (ie The clusters to >>    coordinate
>> sanitation, water, logistic, food distribution, health, >> etc). >> >>    As
>> usual, the Humanitarian OpenStreetMap community assures the >>    interface
>> between the OSM community, the UN agencies and the >>    international
>> organizations. We support the OSM remote response from >>    around the word
>> and we co-coordinate with KLL. We both interface >>    with the DHNetwork
>> digital organization and various other groups via >>    Skype. We have a
>> great support from the International Charter >>    (imagery providers),
>> UNOSAT, DigitalGlobe, Airbus, the HIU unit of >>    the US State dept.,
>> Google, and our dedicated OSM/HOT experienced >>    contributors and
>> developpers. >> >>    Plus the various groups that provide the 30 minutes
>> updates for the >>    various OSM exports. >> >>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/2015_Nepal_earthquake#Map_and_Data_Services
>> >>    Still more challenges to come with the landslides risks and the >>
>> monsoon coming soon. >> >>    At the same time, it is important to assure a
>> good coordination of >>    the OSM community from around the world. The
>> statistics below show >>    great numbers and some challenges with all the
>> new contributors that >>    participate to the response. Note that these are
>> preliminary >>    statistics that can be revised later. With less then 3
>> weeks of >>    response, we already have edited more the 13 million of
>> objects. >> >>    The pbf export file increased from 27 megs april 24 to 84
>> megs >>    yesterday. Three times bigger. This is quite awesome. It also
>> shows >>    how we should adapt to such a rapid growth of the OSM database
>> for >>    Nepal and maintain quality to adequately respond to the
>> operational >>    needs of the humanitarian organizations in the field. >>
>> >> >>    Preliminary statistics, Nepal Response Apr-25 ­ May 15, including
>> >>    worldwide mecchanical edits         NB >>    Contributors *6,456* >>
>> Days       *11,877* >> Changeset Sessions *154,048* >>    Objects edited
>> (ie. Points, lines, polygons)       *13,089,247* >> >> >>    Such a response
>> has brought various discussions on the HOT list on >>    how to both respond
>> quickly and assure data quality. OSM >>    crowdsourcing can be compared to
>> an image that we load throug >>    internet. First, we have a quite
>> inprecise image, coming clearer >>    gradually. The Mapathons a bit of this
>> role. If unorganized, they >>    can bring a lot of data quality problems.
>> The worlwide OSM >>    community can play a strategic role in such a
>> response by >>    contributing to structure the way the new contributors
>> learn OSM and >>    edit the map. For the first day of contribution, what is
>> important >>    is that people better understand what are the various steps
>> and >>    provide quality data. If we succeed to bring them a second day to
>> >>    help, this will show quite a significant succcess since the majority
>> >>    of them contribute only one day for the response. >> >>    There will
>> be surely Lessons learned from this Response. For now, I >>    suggest that
>> people that organize Mapathons communicate with >>    activation @
>> hotosm.org <http://hotosm.org> and provide some infos >>    about the
>> Mapathon >>    - who Organize this mapathon >>    - town, country >>    -
>> Name, email of organizers >>    - how many experienced osm contributors to
>> support the mapathon >>    - Nb of people that you plan to receive >>    -
>> twitter account if you plan to publish updates >>    - indicate that you
>> give HOT the license to reuse photos that you >>    publish on Twitter. This
>> can help for outreach and various Blog >> updates. >> >>    *Various map
>> products* >> >>    UNOSAT GDACS Live map with geolocated damage analysis. >>
>> >>
>> https://unosat.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=b9f9da798f364cd6a6e68fc20f5475eb
>> >> >>    Visualisation, /Potentially Dangerous Glacial Lakes of Nepal >>
>> / >> http://geoportal.icimod.org/storymaps/nepalglakes/  >> >>    Lanslides
>> in the mountains with the last earthquake this week - See >>    this video
>> to better understand the reality of people living in >>    remote areas of
>> Nepal with only paths connecting the high mountain >>    villages. >>
>> https://twitter.com/pierzen/status/599005434733789185  >> >>    A
>> Visualisation Gift from Christian Quest of OSM-fr >>    New contributions to
>> OSM for Nepal >>    Awesoooooooooooooooooooooome!!! >>
>> http://osm.cquest.org/nepal/#9/27.7139/85.3198
>> http://osm.cquest.org/nepal/#9/27.7139/85.3198 >>  >>    twitter update on
>> this >> https://twitter.com/pierzen/status/599232884982026241  >>    Cheers
>> all >> >>    Pierre >> >> >> _______________________________________________
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>> <mailto:HOT at openstreetmap.org> >>
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot >> > > >> >> >>
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