[Osmf-talk] Reaching out and diversity (Was: Re: AGM and board elections)

Sat Sep 27 00:56:34 UTC 2014

Thanks Emilie for highlighting my points about privilege. While gender is
certainly a diversity problem in OpenStreetMap it isn't the only issue.

I wanted to share another thing we could all do to assist in hearing
diverse views. We could simple listen. I make it a point not to send too
many emails on the assorted OSM mailing lists in a day. It is easy to
respond to every email and tell people you don't agree with them. Recently
my roommate Mathew Lippincott gave a talk at FOSS4G regarding diversity and
provided a handout to help guide conversations(1). It is a simple guide, I
don't unfortunately have a digital copy other than the picture at the
moment. Though this is the outline.

The Flux Guide to Respectful Conversation

*Share time with everybody
*Take three seconds to think
*Find empathy for others
*Understanding isn't necessary

Thanks,

-Kate

(1)https://twitter.com/wonderchook/status/509840349997457408

On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 5:33 AM, Emilie Laffray <emilie.laffray at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have been reading the thread and I have so far refrained from
> intervening.
> First of all, I want to say I agree with you and I could probably cite a
> few occasions where some comments or behaviors have been inappropriate. I
> am going to refrain from naming and shaming because it won't help and it
> will only stir more conversations.
>
> I have participated to a lot of those studies on Women in tech and also in
> OpenStreetMap. The recurring question is how do we get more women in the
> community?
>
> Actually, I have no idea. Why do people like Kate or me are getting
> involved in some activities because we like it and maybe because we have a
> slightly thicker skin than some but I can see why you may not want to
> participate more: not everyone is willing to face comments all the time. I
> can't say that I find OSM community particularly against women but I have
> seen a few cases where being a woman in OSM can be hard. We are far from
> the now infamous #gamergate
>
> The other point that we lost in the discussion is the representation of
> "minorities" and the concept that Kate has pushed of privileged and non
> privileged.
> Because of what I believe I do not strongly believe that we will improve
> the situation by setting up quotas in the first for both categories. They
> are a patch not fixing the underlying causes (well I will not go further as
> I definitely don't have the answers).
>
> There are probably a few leads that can be followed by being more
> proactive to intervene in stopping some toxic behaviors but then again as
> discussed before, words exchanged in a corridor with someone mocking
> calling you darling are going to be difficult to stop in the first place.
>
> Regarding the issue of privileged, I think some aspect of it can be solved
> by reducing some barrier of entry but as I have observed reducing the
> barrier of entry for non privileged end up creating another set of
> privileged among the unprivileged but it is a pretty good step forward. I
> will always remember one of the presentation of how mapping was done in
> Cuba during SOTM Amsterdam: with paper and pen mostly.
>
> Anyway, we also need to realize that vectorial drawing will always remain
> hard for most people in the first place and due to the nature of minorities
> and privilege, these are the people that will not have the right training
> from the start to do it.
>
> I don't have answers but that doesn't prevent us from trying to move
> forward without starting name calling or that something doesn't exist. The
> fact is 3% of mappers are female.
>
> I can only encourage Kate to continue to move forward and on these points,
> I support her completely. Her understanding of topics like "minorities" or
> non privileged is excellent thanks to one being one of the "minority" and
> two having lived in place where the majority of people are non privileged.
>
> Emilie Laffray
>
> On 26 September 2014 14:56, Dan Stowell <danstowell at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 2014-09-26 22:19 GMT+01:00 Steve Doerr <doerr.stephen at gmail.com>:
>> > On 26/09/2014 15:54, John Crowley wrote:
>> > > In my years working in communities, I keep seeing the same pattern.
>> Someone speaks up about misogyny or other aggression in general, then
>> someone demands specific evidence, silencing the conversation. It is often
>> not intended, but those seeking data should realize that they need to start
>> by listening, not challenging.
>> >
>> > No they don't. The people making accusations need to provide evidence.
>> Otherwise it's defamation. If there's no evidence, they made it up - simple
>> as that.
>>
>> Steve, I really do understand your wish for evidence, it's an
>> important motivation. But firstly, it's not defamation if people have
>> referred to previous experience without identifying the alleged. It
>> would be defamation if they were identifying the alleged. (This
>> highlights at least one reason why it's problematic to demand
>> evidence.) Secondly, it's really quite rude to say that if there's no
>> supporting evidence, "they made it up". If someone witnesses something
>> but we don't see evidence beyond their own testimony, we don't usually
>> assume that it's fabricated, do we?
>>
>> Other people have already put it better than me. To quote: "Dear men:
>> the big mistake we could make and need to avoid is to look at recent
>> mailing list postings, not see anyone blatantly bashing women, and
>> assume there's not a problem. Sexism happens in quiet ways publicly
>> and loud ways privately - off-list posts, quick exchanges on IRC,
>> sexual harassment at every tech conference ever. Outing those
>> encounters can be socially impossible, or it can even be a legal
>> matter. This is one place where [citation needed] is incredibly
>> inappropriate."
>>
>> Best
>> Dan
>>
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>>
>
>
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