[Osmf-talk] Proposal - OSMF Should **NOT** Adopt a Code of Conduct

[Joseph Reeves]

Hi Stefan,

Again, I said that I didn't think your email was in violation of a
potential CoC, I said that it would potentially have a chilling effect.

In my opinion, the mistake you've made is to take a post about the
atmosphere of a mailing list and to think that this is the sort of thing
that would be subject to a CoC procedure.

The original question was "Some people feel frightened to participate in
mailing lists?"

And Emily answered "yes": Pressing someone to explain their feelings,
whilst asking them for specifics that we'd apply a hypothetical CoC to, is
not encouraging participation.

Cheers, Joseph



On 3 December 2017 at 23:11, Stefan Keller <sfkeller at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Joseph
>
> > 2017-12-03 23:56 GMT+01:00 Joseph Reeves <iknowjoseph at gmail.com>:
>
> Now I'm feeling stifled :-(!
> But it's worth to observe how "mechanisms" of a CoC would be applied -
> and how this conversation is being turned ad adsurdum!
>
> :Stefan
>
>
>
> 2017-12-03 23:56 GMT+01:00 Joseph Reeves <iknowjoseph at gmail.com>:
> > Hi Stefan,
> >
> > Arguably this email is an example of one that would stifle someone's
> desire
> > to speak freely. I'm not saying that I would consider it falling foul of
> a
> > CoC policy, but it's not a welcoming or inviting entry to further
> > discussion.
> >
> > The argument goes that a CoC would have a chilling effect on mailing list
> > discussions, but to prevent this situation people are asked to cite
> specific
> > examples to defend their feelings; you can't create a chilling effect to
> > protect your own perceived communication rights. In short, if somebody
> > states how they feel, it's not OK to insist that they provide specific
> > evidence for this feeling. Doing so is potentially stifling others and
> > creates the chilling effect you are claiming to be working against.
> >
> > Look again at your email. Emily wrote:
> >
> >> but this space feels fraught with hostility and personal tensions
> >> - some of which goes years back.
> >
> > In your response you asked for specific examples that Emily has suffered:
> >
> >>Can you pls. point to a mailing list post where you experienced
> >>hostility and personal tensions?
> >
> > Without doubt you will have seen hostility and personal tension on the
> list
> > over the last couple of weeks. It would be impossible not to see that.
> But
> > you've asked Emily for a specific instance relating to her. The point is,
> > the hostility and personal tension is discouraging to many people,
> whether
> > or not it was directed specifically, and personally, towards themselves.
> > Asking for someone to point out a specific instance that they have
> suffered
> > abuse is not OK, misses the point of Community Standards, and only
> threatens
> > to worsen the situation.
> >
> > Joseph
> >
> > On 3 December 2017 at 22:24, Stefan Keller <sfkeller at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Emily and Andrew
> >>
> >> 2017-12-03 23:06 GMT+01:00 Emily Eros <emily.eros at gmail.com>:
> >> > but this space feels fraught with hostility and personal tensions
> >> > - some of which goes years back.
> >>
> >> Thanks for sharing your feelings.
> >>
> >> Can you pls. point to a mailing list post where you experienced
> >> hostility and personal tensions?
> >> And if yes, I'd like to see if and why any CoC would have helped.
> >>
> >> 2017-12-03 22:27 GMT+01:00 Andrew Matheny <andrewdmatheny at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > What I think is happening today is that new users sign up
> >> > for the mailing lists, they see what is sent back and forth,
> >> > and then they either disengage or unsubscribe.
> >>
> >> Can you pls. give some examples where this happened?
> >>
> >> I'm mainly aware of rather experienced mappers who habe been engaged
> >> in disputes (as its happening in any online community).
> >>
> >> Would'nt a netiquette have handled that - perhaps reminded by others,
> >> and finally by a moderator or OSMF group member?
> >>
> >> :Stefan
> >>
> >>
> >> 2017-12-03 23:06 GMT+01:00 Emily Eros <emily.eros at gmail.com>:
> >> > Hi all,
> >> >
> >> > As someone who generally doesn't participate in these mailing lists, I
> >> > very
> >> > much disagree with this statement:
> >> > "Some people feel frightened to participate in mailing lists? Well, I
> >> > think
> >> > it's very exaggerated and makes me smile in general."
> >> >
> >> > I can wholeheartedly say that YES, this is a space that I don't feel
> >> > comfortable participating in. It's great to see people passionate
> about
> >> > OSM,
> >> > but this space feels fraught with hostility and personal tensions -
> some
> >> > of
> >> > which goes years back. It's easy to feel like saying something is
> going
> >> > to
> >> > leave me feeling attacked. For me, I don't see an obvious way to
> >> > contribute
> >> > and try to make this better, so YES, it is very tempting to just
> >> > disengage.
> >> > I know I'm not alone in that, so I'd really encourage you to take it
> >> > seriously when people say that they don't feel comfortable
> contributing
> >> > to
> >> > the mailing lists.
> >> >
> >> > To me, it seems like all the loudest voices are the ones having this
> >> > conversation. As someone who participates less, I can say that the
> >> > existence
> >> > of a CoC (carefully drafted, with community input and caution about
> how
> >> > to
> >> > design this well) is something that would make me feel more
> comfortable
> >> > here.
> >> >
> >> > "In that context, and without any intention to offend anyone, I'd give
> >> > more
> >> > value in this matter to the opinion of people who are more likely to
> be
> >> > the
> >> > victims of harassment and abusive behavior, compared to the opinion of
> >> > white
> >> > males who argue out of the safety of their privileged status."
> >> >
> >> > +1 to that, and thanks to Nikos for pointing it out.
> >> >
> >> > My two cents.
> >> > Emily
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Nikos Roussos <comzeradd at fsfe.org>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > I have more interesting things to do in life,
> >> >> > like mapping for example.
> >> >>
> >> >> So you only do one interesting thing at a time? Please let's avoid
> >> >> undervaluing what other people may find interesting.
> >> >>
> >> >> > Any code of conduct will make people more or less autocensure. I
> >> >> > can't
> >> >> > see any interest of having that thing, unless for control.
> >> >>
> >> >> If a CoC make people to auto-censor from abusive behavior I'd say
> it's
> >> >> worth it.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> This is a nice read on the value of a CoC in a community:
> >> >> http://incisive.nu/2014/codes-of-conduct/
> >> >>
> >> >> For those who don't have the time to read it all a very good argument
> >> >> is
> >> >> that "you aren’t creating a code of conduct only - or even primarily
> -
> >> >> for
> >> >> the people who are likely to break it. You’re creating it to make it
> >> >> clear
> >> >> to anyone who has been harmed or harassed, online or off, that your
> >> >> space is
> >> >> safe for them."
> >> >>
> >> >> In that context, and without any intention to offend anyone, I'd give
> >> >> more
> >> >> value in this matter to the opinion of people who are more likely to
> be
> >> >> the
> >> >> victims of harassment and abusive behavior, compared to the opinion
> of
> >> >> white
> >> >> males who argue out of the safety of their privileged status.
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> osmf-talk mailing list
> >> >> osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> >> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >> > osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> >> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
>
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