[Osmf-talk] reviewing imports (was: "a viper pit...")
ilya at zverev.info
Thu Dec 21 11:03:43 UTC 2017
I have re-read your message after sending mine, and you were indeed very polite and constructive. Your suggestions were absolutely on point, and I am sorry I forgot to thank you for taking your time writing these. Ian's message was the total opposite of yours: unconstructive, but positive and encouraging. And that's what we are talking about.
You probably consider OSM communication channels to be no place for unconstructive messages. If you don't have anything to say on the topic, don't. I understand that. If the import were mine, I'd totally accept your way. It's how developer communities communicate. Until they grow to accommodate not only technical people.
Ian could have spent more time reviewing the import and finding things to improve. Of course there are many, being a mapper I see a lot. That would have helped adjust tagging and the overall quality. On the other hand, you could also have spent more time on positive and encouraging words. It's a hard work — while Ian would have to examine every tag, you would need to pretend you consider this import a good thing for the map. But it would lead to gaining better data, it would prepare people to accept your suggestions and it would show that the OSM community is welcoming and is ready to communicate with everyone, not just fellow mappers.
Wrt the import, I disclosed my role in the first reply to the topic in that mailing list. Here, I don't think it is relevant.
> 20 дек. 2017 г., в 15:32, Frederik Ramm <frederik at remote.org> написал(а):
> On 20.12.2017 10:30, Ilya Zverev wrote:
>> For example, let's take the recent discussion in imports at . A VP of a company subscribes and posts about a Walmart import, 4600 points, with no licensing issues, good tagging and nicely visualized. Next comes Ian and thanks him for the work in preparing the import. Normal? Yes for the american community, I guess.
>> But not for OSM: it's unheard of, that an import discussion starts with a grateful words, and not criticism. It is so uncommon in our community, that Frederik immediately replied with sarcasm
> You are misrepresenting the situation.
> I had a few questions about the import and found a few minor flaws that
> I pointed out in an *extremely* polite fashion. Anyone can read my
> message here:
> Example quotes from that email:
> "Do you happen to have building outlines too?"
> "Would e.g. your opening times information
> apply to the pharmacy as well?"
> "I'm not sure if these chain-specific denominations are really desirable
> to have in the name tag ... I would probably be tempted to map it as
> such - i.e. name=Walmart"
> "In my particular example, you have set an "addr:full" tag that
> contains the street and house number, but you have not set
> "addr:housenumber" or "addr:street". What we would normally do is ..."
> This is 100% friendly and constructive criticism. I also made it very
> clear that I only looked at one single POI in the import, hence I might
> have accidentally found the one that has a problem.
> The import did not have "good tagging", as you claim above; and it is
> totally normal for a first suggestion to not have "good tagging", and
> for people on the imports list to suggest improvements.
> Suggesting improvements to obvious flaws is all I did with regard to the
> original poster, and no ill will or unfair criticism was directed at
> him. Claiming that I "tried hard to find as much flaws in the import as
> possible" is blatantly untrue. Offering constructive criticism and
> suggestions for improvement is what the whole imports discussion process
> is for.
> My sarcasm is directed at those who make a joke of the imports process
> by saying "yes great" to something without actually having looked at it
> and spotted obvious flaws. If you don't have the time to look at the
> quality of an import, that's ok, but then don't write something that
> sounds like you did assess the quality and it was good. That's insincere
> at best - how would you react to a compliment where someone says "great
> code you've written there" and then you find out they've only looked at
> the github index page? You are doing nobody a favour with that; least of
> all the person who suggests an import. It might look "welcoming" on the
> surface, but it is bad for everyone including your own reputation.
> I'd also like to second Simon's message, that it would have been
> appropriate for you to add a "full disclosure" to your message; to form
> their own opinion, I think readers should know about your involvement
> with the import in question.
> PS: If sarcasm was insta-banned from OSM, we'd probably have had to live
> without your contributions for the last 5 years or so. Which would,
> seriously, have been quite a loss.
> Frederik Ramm ## eMail frederik at remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
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