[Osmf-talk] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

Thu Dec 10 20:23:02 UTC 2020

Thank you for your thoughts Kathleen. There are many good reasons why I
would not see or notice discriminatory practices within OSM. I am very open
to the idea that these exist and I'm not seeing them. The one example that
started this thread was a very bad example, and using that as a springboard
for an entire movement does not seem reasonable to me. We need actual
examples of how discrimination is preventing people in minority positions
so that we can know how to work in a positive direction to remove those
obstacles.

"If OSM did not systematically exclude these groups, these groups would not
be underrepresented." This might be true, but is not necessarily true. Lack
of access to technology by marginalized people is a single example of
challenges OSM can face when striving for more inclusion. OSM does not
(cannot?) create the reasons for the lack of access to technology, and so
it cannot be blamed for this. There are many other reasons that are not
caused by OSM that can explain gaps in diversity within OSM. However, if
OSM understands what these barriers are then it can work to actively close
these gaps within the means it has available. For example, a fund could be
started to help purchase equipment for members of marginalized communities
that are interested in contributing but face this problem as a barrier.
Perhaps there are many ways that OSM can help remove barriers it did not
create, but does have in its power to tear down.

I believe there are many in the OSM community that are passionate about
inclusiveness, but are troubled by this thread because Celine kicked off
this discussion in a way that does not stand logical muster in the face of
the facts she was presenting.

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 3:03 PM Kathleen Lu via osmf-talk <
osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> First, let me say that I do know Frederik personally, I have had
> pleasant dinners with him and hope to do so again post-pandemic. He
> has apologised for his poor choice of words, and I accept his apology.
>
> The volume of attacks and hostile tone against Celine in reaction to
> the document she shared demonstrates exactly why OSM is not a
> welcoming community for the majority of women. For myself, I find the
> listservs to be the least welcoming part of the community. These
> comments are not enough to prevent me from mapping and participating,
> but they are discouraging and demotivating.
>
> A lot of people on this list are conflating systems of discrimination
> and inequality with hostile intent. Systems are not personal and are
> not about intent. Discrimination and inequality can be structural, and
> can and do take place without intent, sometimes by accident, sometimes
> due to structural inequities not within the immediate control of the
> actor(s) examining the issue.
>
> To make a non-technical analogy, if you step on someone's foot by
> accident, you still stepped on their foot, and their foot still hurts.
> Apologising helps, but it would be better if you didn't step on their
> foot in the future. If one group has shoes and another group does not,
> the group without shoes is more likely to be on the end of painful
> steps. How do you solve such a systematic problem? One option would be
> to give everyone shoes. Another would be for those with shoes to step
> more carefully. Right now, society demands that those without shoes do
> the work of dodging everyone else's steps, documenting a list of times
> they've been stepped on, and explaining why getting stepped on hurts.
>
> Underrepresentation of women and gender minorities, racial
> underrepresentation, geographic underrepresentation, these are all
> symptoms. If OSM did not systematically exclude these groups, these
> groups would not be underrepresented. Such a problem is not unique to
> OSM, nor is it easy to solve. Step 1 is to recognize the problem. A
> vocal contingent of the community is not willing to do that. I believe
> this contingent is vocal but not a majority of OSM, but
> overrepresented on the listservs. I would encourage those who are
> watching this firestorm to consider that the listservs are a very poor
> representation of the OSM community and the views of its members. I
> would also strongly encourage those watching to vote in the OSMF Board
> elections.
>
> Kathleen
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 11:25 AM <mail at marcos-martinez.net> wrote:
> >
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > as usual when it comes to this kind of complex topics I have the feeling
> that people tend to writing about only that part which is interesting to
> them, throw that piece into the arena and in the end there is a lot of
> confusion, misunderstanding and no constructive way out.
> >
> > For this reason let me try to tackle things separately to get a clearer
> picture.
> >
> > 1. The message by Frederik: The starting point for the whole debate, so
> we should be aligned about its interpretation. It seems obvious to me, and
> not only after further clarification by the author, that Trump's quote in
> NO WAY reflects Frederik's mindset. Anybody suggesting this should be
> disqualified from further debate as it completely lacks objective basis.
> One could then argue that he could have backed the same argument, the same
> message with a different quote, a different wording. That is right and it
> implies the following: Whatever you say, no matter how valid your point is,
> no matter what the context of the wording is and even if you are only
> quoting: don't use words with a sexual connotation because the sole mention
> of it will offend some people. If that's what it takes to make those people
> feel more comfortable I am fine with it. To avoid misunderstandings based
> on cultural differences regarding what is allowed I consequently encourage
> to create a list of "undesirable wordings" so everybody knows what is
> acceptable or not.
> >
> > What really strikes me is that if Frederik had used a similar quote,
> e.g. "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I
> wouldn’t lose any voters", nothing of all this would have happened. This
> reminds me of the censorship logic apparently used in US movies: You can
> show how people kill, torture, severe limbs - but don't you dare show a
> nipple because that could offend.
> >
> > Bottomline: We are not discussing a general offensive attitude nor an
> individual offensive message, we are discussing the pure wording of a
> message.
> >
> > 2. The topic of Fredrik's message
> >
> > A real pity this is taking a backseat, especially because it is somehow
> linked to what many people are apparently fighting for: Diversity, Open
> Community, Inclusion etc.
> >
> > I´ll try to keep it short as it is worth a big debate on its own: This
> is about Facebook. Their business model is based on the opposite of
> everything this community should stand for. They represent the antagonism
> of a free, self-determined, inclusive society. According to Amnesty
> International their business model threatens human rights (1). There is
> almost no day we do not hear about a lawsuit or scandal, too many to
> mention in this thread. Only today I read that "Facebook's 'monopoly' must
> be split up, US and states say in major lawsuits" (2). Personally I'd tag
> them as legal but criminal organization. Now, this company has made the
> strategic decision to use OSM, not because of our values but because they
> desperately need us to fight Google in terms of map data. A clear
> manifestation of this is that after Facebook purchasing Mapillary Google
> fights back and now lets anyone upload Street View photos with smartphones.
> I have no doubt that as soon as we as OSM are not needed anymore they will
> ditch us and in the meantime will try to steer the project in a direction
> that serves their and only their interest - in case these overlaps with
> others it it will be regarded as welcome side effect. This is the context
> to better understand Frederik's indignation when he feels that our project
> is being bullied around by someone who represents this company, whether you
> agree with his point of view or not. Let me make this clear: This opinion
> doesn't diminish the value of Michal's contributions, done throughout many
> years in any way. It also doesn't mean that certain departments of a
> company like Facebook may never do any good. But when the mafia pays your
> salary and you come to a place like OSM don't be surprised if you are met
> with distrust. Nothing personal.
> >
> > Where are the voices that loudly claim a paradigm shift towards more
> respect, more diversity and more freedom? Where are those that so easily
> identify aggressive and dehumanizing behavior in this discussion?
> >
> > 3. The statement:
> >
> > As it seems to be still a work in progress a can only refer to the
> version to date.
> >
> > The title makes a clear statement, this should be about offensive
> behavior and I strongly believe we are all in to eradicate it. The first
> thing that chirps me is mentioning Frederik's message, tagging it as
> "offensive and dehumanizing". As explained above these adjectives should be
> aimed at Donald Trump, not Frederik quoting him. It would have been decent
> to at least formulate that some people felt offended by the use of the
> quote, the sentence which appears now in the statement sounds like a
> deliberate way undermine the real sense of the Frederik's message. I am
> thinking loudly: Is this the one example the originators come up with to
> pinpoint offensive behavior? I am not so blind to believe it doesn't exist
> and THIS is all you can come up with? Am am sure there are hundreds of real
> examples that show how women or minorities are treated with contempt,
> please use those, otherwise the good cause will fail its objective. I am
> sure there are many white, male, westerners like me who have hardly ever
> encountered the behavior you are trying to fight against and with this
> example you are providing further arguments: If Frederik's message is
> supposed to be a shiny example than we are actually pretty well off.
> >
> > The topic of offensive behavior is then mixed with advocating diversity.
> As above, I believe we are all in for achieving this. I also strongly
> believe that the lack of diversity has many very powerful reasons but
> offensive behavior in our community has probably the lowest impact. Mixing
> things up is never a good strategy. The statement mentions "spare time,
> senior positions, confidence, access to technology, and fluency in English,
> amongst others". Most of these parameters depend on the innumerable
> injustices that rule this world. I imagine all people of this planet having
> a decent income, decent education and decent living conditions and you
> don't need to be a prophet to predict that this community will completely
> change. Unfortunately we as OSM community have very little impact on these
> factors, which means we will have to stick with a white, western, male
> vision of the map that doesn't represent the world's diversity until then.
> Little impact doesn't mean "no impact", so let's do what lies in our hands
> but let's be realistic and trusting the cause of diversity uniquely in the
> hands of offensive behavior debate is plainly unrealistic. Or is the
> suggestion that we, the privileged ones, step aside and stop activities
> until we have reached a satisfactory degree of diversity?
> >
> > Formulated as it is I don't feel compelled to sign.
> >
> > Let's not forget: The map we are helping to build is one of the steps
> that can help to make this a better place.
> >
> > 1. https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/pol30/1404/2019/en/
> >
> > 2.
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/dec/09/facebook-lawsuit-antitrust-whatsapp-instagram-ftc
> >
> >
> > Am 10.12.2020 18:18, schrieb Celine Jacquin:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello everyone
> > Thank you for your answers.
> >
> > And thanks for the supportive messages.
> >
> > I will give a general response, trying to cover all the points that I
> can extend, and trying to be clear despite my limited time and fluency in
> English.
> >
> > Above all, I would like you to become aware of the harshness of the
> responses that reach me when directing myself to myself, when this
> initiative is collective, and is that of a large number of women who are
> already confronting and documenting, researching, have been analyzing and
> drawing on testimonies for many years now (see the main mission of
> Geochicas, the context in which this community was formed; see also the
> different initiatives and activities in different countries of our fellow
> signatories).
> > The responses in the regional chats, since yesterday, have reached
> varying levels of sometimes intolerable discrimination, and also a general
> effort to deflect the problem that we raise by pointing out all the
> details, flaws in our declaration (made in 1 day between people who have
> already a great workload, because no, a large number of us are not people
> from the privileged circle of corporations closely linked to OSM located in
> rich countries, a common criticism in chats).
> > Many members of Geochicas testified that they did not have the energy to
> take part in the debate on lists and chats, because of the level of
> aggressiveness that can be seen there.
> >
> > This to come back to the point already shared many times in all possible
> communication channels: women, from southern countries, OSM members, are
> materially limited to participate in all the activities that we would like,
> in particular the activities of high levels such as participating in the
> board, and animatedly limited by aggressiveness of any type, direct or
> indirect, frontal or underlying, in all types of communication.
> >
> > Reading the reactions to our initiative since yesterday, as well as the
> numerous invitations to make my own copy of OSM and leave it (we will
> document these comments in an organized way for those who do not believe
> it), demotivated me to participate in the board meeting today, and affected
> for the next few days surely, but also, deeply disappointed by what I
> generally experience as a beautiful commitment and a nice community (when I
> participate little in the debates and do not realize what is happening
> there).
> >
> > Some concrete points to your answers:
> >
> > - Directly targeting a person who expresses herself clearly on behalf of
> a community, deliberately mistaking the interlocutor, is equivalent to
> looking for a target rather than establishing a dialogue.
> >
> > - Our statement is not a direct and personal reaction to Frederick's
> email. His email is simply an incident that motivates us to react again, in
> a new way, in the continuity of our different actions on this same line.
> Nothing to do with a strategy of avoiding the theme of the entry of
> representatives of Facebook to the board. Nothing personal either. We are
> all convinced that an individual who makes unfortunate choices in his
> expression (this also happens to anybody and we strive to recognize it),
> can also be a valuable member of OSM. This does not change our point at all.
> >
> > - We are not talking specifically about quotas, we invite the OMSF to
> think collegially about solutions and to integrate various people in the
> search for a solution, by adapting to the limits of these people to be able
> to participate in it also (therefore seek real solutions to the
> participation).
> >
> > - We did not have time in 1 day to think of the right support to share
> this statement. Google is clearly not a good solution. The statement shared
> yesterday due to the board meeting is a draft, it will then (very soon) be
> posted on the wiki.
> >
> > - As has already been said, you cannot explain to a perpetually offended
> group, which expresses it as such, that the remarks which offend them are
> not offensive. If a person is offended, it is because the terms of
> collective expression must be reviewed. Without it, you assume without
> saying it that you do not want to give voice or take into account what
> these people are telling you and what they are experiencing.
> >
> > - Diversity is clearly a large and complex issue, and we all fail at one
> level or another. But working to improve diversity means being open to
> petitions and always improving our rank of understanding it. Criticizing
> the search for diversity by demonstrating the limits of others is what I
> can call: sabotaging this search for diversity.
> > The correct way is to always humbly re-read our own words when someone
> points out an offense.
> > Considering the fact of not offending anyone in such a large community
> utopian, would that be a way of saying that it is pointless and useless to
> work to improve the inclusiveness of our modes of expression? Is there an
> excuse to continue to be violent on any scale without limit? I also believe
> that it's hard not to offend anyone and to understand everyone's codes, but
> the secret to the recipe lies in being willing and trying, more and better
> all the time, in good faith.
> >
> > - We generally, all life, "assume good faith" from people, which is a
> way to normalize violence. But there are limits, and the accumulation
> sometimes luckily leads us to try to improve things. I personally wonder
> why it is so difficult to accept to try to improve things and improve our
> relationship skills in a community project. Improving is only a positive
> notion. So why do we read so much resistance? I hope this will serve to
> lead people to self-questioning.
> > This can lead us to a wider debate: should violence be a context that we
> must embrace, and develop our skills to tolerate and endure it, and to live
> the traumas that it produces to us, and to reproduce the same on more
> people? Or should we try to eradicate or at least reduce violence in our
> behavior?
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your patience in reading this large message.
> > Best
> >
> >
> > Céline Jacquin
> >
> > El jue, 10 de dic. de 2020 a la(s) 07:42, arnalie faye vicario (
> afsvicario at gmail.com) escribió:
> >>
> >> Hello/kumusta,
> >>
> >> What an overwhelming response!
> >>
> >> This is my first time to email thru the global osm talk; it really
> takes true grit to join the conversations, huge thanks to the people who
> inspired me and sparked the flame.
> >>
> >> I will keep it short and redirect you to a (short) OSM Diary I wrote on
> Why WOMEN are pushing for a safe and inclusive space in OSM:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/arnalielsewhere/diary/395064
> >>
> >> A slide from @mapmakerdavid states "it takes good relationships to
> navigate an ocean."
> >>
> >> =Arnalie
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> On Dec 10, 2020, at 8:01 PM, James <james2432 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable fact.
> >>
> >> >Right, this is true. Sadly true. Something I also know from Linux
> Communities and other Open Source/Open Data Communities.
> >>
> >> Same in programming and IT fields, firefighters, mechanics, carpenters,
> construction workers, taxi drivers, etc etc...
> >>
> >> Now is it a simple lack of interest in the field? Gate keeping?
> Discrimination/Sexism? Is it because of tradition that is still lingering?
> >>
> >> We should work with other humans and see why as well as question
> ourselves what can we do/change?
> >>
> >> We should treat other fellow humans, despite sex, race or country of
> origin, as we would want to be treated.
> >>
> >> Would you like to be put down based on your employer, despite your
> knowledge? Probably not, then don't do it
> >>
> >> Would you like to be put down based on your genitalia, despite being
> quite knowledgeable? No? Then don't do it.
> >>
> >> On Thu., Dec. 10, 2020, 6:38 a.m. tilmanreinecke--- via talk, <
> talk at openstreetmap.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable fact.
> >>>
> >>> Right, this is true. Sadly true. Something I also know from Linux
> Communities and other Open Source/Open Data Communities.
> >>>
> >>> > The simplest explanation for this is the systematic institutional
> hostility towards women in the OSM community.
> >>>
> >>> I did not hear about something like that what can be called
> "systematic". Are you sure that we have something like that in OSM? If yes,
> then please point to where that happened. I am pretty sure that this is not
> something systematic. I know women not feeling this way as you because
> OpenStreetMap is an open and welcoming community.
> >>>
> >>> Greetings
> >>>
> >>> Sören
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -------- Original Message --------
> >>> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic
> Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community
> >>> From: Clay Smalley
> >>> To: Celine Jacquin
> >>> CC: osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org,osm
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I'm noticing a pattern here in the replies to this email:
> >>>
> >>> Only men have replied. This is, unfortunately, par for the course on
> the OSM mailing lists. The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable
> fact. The simplest explanation for this is the systematic institutional
> hostility towards women in the OSM community. The replies themselves are
> the best evidence of this.
> >>>
> >>> These men replying have taken it upon themselves to explain to a woman
> what constitutes misogyny. News flash: you do not get to decide what
> offends other people. If you are a man, misogyny will never happen to you
> by definition. If you are a man, you have never been, are not, and will
> never be a victim of misogyny. This isn't your area of expertise. Listen to
> the experts.
> >>>
> >>> Some men replying have even mentioned how this draft letter hurts
> their feelings. These men need to slow down and consider for a moment that
> their temporarily hurt feelings are less important than the safety of
> women. Men's feelings are irrelevant to issues where women are victims.
> >>>
> >>> As far as I know, various OSM-affiliated groups have codes of conduct,
> but there isn't one governing these mailing lists. We need to adopt a code
> of conduct yesterday.
> >>>
> >>> -Clay (they/them)
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 2:13 PM Celine Jacquin <celija at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello everybody
> >>>> I hope you are all well
> >>>>
> >>>> We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have
> reacted to the conversation in the osm-talk-list (
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html)
> considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have faced
> for many years in the community, which is one of the greatest obstacles to
> diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real change.
> >>>> That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the
> desirable mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and
> improve diversity.
> >>>>
> >>>> We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented
> to sign it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome):
> >>>>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On behalf of the signatories
> >>>> Best regards
> >>>>
> >>>> Céline Jacquin
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> talk mailing list
> >>>> talk at openstreetmap.org
> >>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> talk mailing list
> >>> talk at openstreetmap.org
> >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> talk mailing list
> >> talk at openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > osmf-talk mailing list
> > osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > osmf-talk mailing list
> > osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
>
> _______________________________________________
> osmf-talk mailing list
> osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
>

-- 
    Jack David Baucum
    http://maxolasersquad.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/attachments/20201210/d3e521c4/attachment.htm>