[Osmf-talk] Idea for improved mapping system
Casper van Battum
cvanbattum at gmail.com
Wed Oct 21 20:24:37 UTC 2020
Hi all!
I'd say it's always better to analyze why previous attempts have failed.
There's potential to learn a lot from that. However, in this case that
might not be the case since they never seem to have been actively put
into use.
However, the tool that keeps being mentioned in this whole thread is the
HDYC from Pascal Neis. If this idea is to be put into action, I think
one of the first things we should be looking at is this tool. Not just
for its data, but also for its effect on OSM contributors.
As others have mentioned too, I couldn't read the original post on Slack
so I'm purely going off what I've read here in the mailing list. Lots of
questions come to mind: what is the end goal here? Is it to keep users
active and interested? Is there currently a problem with users leaving?
Why are short-lived mappers a problem? Who do we even want to target? Do
we want to keep existing users interested, or do we want to attract new
users? Or are we trying to drag new users in after they joined via other
channels? What should these new users contribute? I can go on like this
for a while...
In UX/Game design we often have clients coming to us asking "I want to
gamify my system because it's fun." Gamification is far from a catch-all
solution to keep users engaged in projects. There are loads of risks
that also have already been mentioned by others here. That is not to say
it's doomed to fail. This brings me back to HDYC because a badge system
would basically be a slightly more visible and accessible version of
this tool. Essentially, the badges would visualize the data of this tool
in a more accessible way, with the only additional effect being the
feeling of reaching milestones each time you get a new badge.
What we should be looking at first and foremost is if a badge system or
another gamification system will actually achieve the goal of keeping
users more engaged. Now, let's assume that it does. In that case, we
should start looking at how HDYC already impacts the way people map. For
me personally, it keeps me more engaged and I like seeing the progress
and impact I'm having visualized. This is purely anecdotal of course, so
we'd need a survey to collect similar experiences from other mappers.
How many users even use HDYC on a regular basis? Are they only the ones
that already have a vested interest in the project? Why do they, or why
not? Maybe it has to do with visibility; HDYC - being a third-party tool
- might not be as visible to new users? Would it be beneficial to
integrate this system into the official project or should we simply
leave it to third parties to make tools like this?
We shouldn't improvise a system like this by just trying out the first
idea that comes to mind. User surveys are really the first step to take
if we want to implement this. Then, the idea to test some ideas with a
small portion of new and existing users would be a great idea. Then we
can start thinking about the direction we'd want to take this in
further. But first, let's figure out what the end goal is here.
Gamifying the project might not be the solution we need for the real
thing we want to achieve, and it would be a huge miss if we just assumed
that it will work.
Cheers, Casper
On 2020-10-20 03:24, Naveen Francis wrote:
> Hello Simon,
>
> There are few things which we us the OSM community have to put in place.
> 1. Welcoming tool. - Many of us talked many times, a couple of
> countries it is already in place and it is helping them.
> 2. Rewards/Awards - Question is it useful ??
>
> Rewards/Awards have been implemented very well in ' Wikipedia
> Barnstars', 'Google Local Guides',
> I have never heard this argument that Wikipedia Barnstar is destroying
> the Wikipedia project.
>
> Do we need to analyze why our earlier systems have failed?
> Isn't better to improvise the system?
>
> If we sit and say, it has failed previously and it will always fail,
> don't try that. It has no good impact.
>
> The community tries different things first they fail and understand
> what went wrong and then improvise
> Are you saying that previous systems that were in place were
> completely useless?
> Anyway, I am planning to send an OSM postcard and a couple of stickers
> to users who have completed 1000 edits.
> <https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/naveenpf/diary/394323>
>
> Thanks,
> naveenpf
>
>
> On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 at 14:58, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch
> <mailto:simon at poole.ch>> wrote:
>
>
> Am 18.10.2020 um 10:18 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via osmf-talk:
>> As usual with other stopped projects in OSM - people working on it
>> abandoned it due to a lost interest.
>
> At the danger of stating the obvious, these schemes have in all
> failed because they were either not effective (the wiki badge
> stuff) or too effective (essentially any gamification of mapping,
> including initial SC btw) and have led to vandalism at larger
> scales and trying to suppress that is too much work.
>
> On a more philosophical note it is best for the project if we
> retain mappers because they have a motivation to contribute, a
> desire for completeness, participating in another activity that
> needs good map data and naturally simply liking mapping, that is
> closely linked to map data quality, not because they are being
> paid in one way or the other (absolution is the most popular form,
> but money naturally too).
>
> Simon
>
>>
>> Oct 18, 2020, 07:08 by naveenpf at gmail.com
>> <mailto:naveenpf at gmail.com>:
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> It would be really nice to have an awards or badges system
>> inside OSM.
>>
>> Have seen a couple of pages on that in OSM wiki. (first saw
>> on Mikel's userpage - North Star !!! )
>> Don't know why it stopped ?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> naveenpf
>>
>> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Awards
>> [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Badges
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 at 07:09, Christopher Beddow
>> <christopher.beddow at gmail.com
>> <mailto:christopher.beddow at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I feel like we could take the How Did You Contribute
>> stats from Pascal Neis and prototype some badges based on
>> that.
>>
>> Anyone could do this, just build it separately from the
>> OpenStreetMap website, for now anyway, as a proof of concept.
>>
>> The stats are all there to analyze. Give somebody a badge
>> for being a local expert inside a city or country, with a
>> minimum number of changesets. Other badges based on
>> adding, modifying, or deleting data. Maybe a Cleanup
>> Specialist if deleting a lot for example.
>>
>> For bad changesets and edits, points and a gamification
>> can help. If you get a flagged changeset, you get a
>> message that you can fix it with help, and that you can
>> earn a badge for it like a "Mentee Level 1", showing you
>> have been approved by other Mappers for fixing a mistake,
>> but you could get the same badge for making a series of
>> perfect edits endorsed by an existing mapper. Or a bad
>> edit blocks you from getting it, but you get informed
>> that you can qualify if you work with somebody to fix the
>> mistake. Motivational!
>>
>> Then badges based on data types: a road runner who adds a
>> lot of roads, badges for fixing speed limits, a POI
>> Hound, etc. Then maybe in apps like street complete or
>> vespucci you can get recommended to fix or enrich the
>> nearby map in a way that's tailored to your specialty.
>>
>> I would love to have little stickers or pins at a state
>> of the map conference which show the badges I got on OSM,
>> and I could find other Mappers who have a strange
>> interest in adding utility poles or electric car chargers
>> or hiking trails just like me. You could even have a
>> badge for contributing to the map on every continent, or
>> for contributing a minimum number with survey as a
>> source, with GPS as a source, or a language badge for
>> adding like 50+ place names in any particular language
>> like Spanish or Swahili.
>>
>> You could set all this up outside OSM but any user could
>> log onto this site and see what badges they qualify for.
>> As I aid the data and stats all exist, just time to
>> categorize them. I'm happy to help think about this.
>>
>> It would be fun to take some inspiration from scouting
>> organizations (Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts etc) for merit
>> badge scenarios which is separate from a sort of
>> rank/title, and sketch out what helps a mapper qualify
>> for these.
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 19:05 Clifford Snow
>> <clifford at snowandsnow.us
>> <mailto:clifford at snowandsnow.us>> wrote:
>>
>> Oscar,
>> I saw your post on Slack and glad to see you are also
>> posting on a mailing list. I'd suggest asking on the
>> talk list,
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk, to
>> reach more people. The OSMF-Talk mailing list is for
>> Foundation related issues. The Foundation is more
>> about running the servers, licensing, etc. The
>> Foundation isn't directly involved in day to day
>> mapping. On the other hand, we are always looking for
>> more Working Group volunteers. You can find a list of
>> the Working Groups at
>> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Groups.
>> If anyone of the groups interests you, feel free to
>> reach out to them. Each group has an email that you
>> can contact them for more information.
>>
>> Best,
>> Clifford
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 4:51 PM TheAdventurer64
>> <little.banana.peel at gmail.com
>> <mailto:little.banana.peel at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> A user and I were talking about implementing a
>> system for better mapping, as described here:
>> https://osmus.slack.com/archives/C029HV951/p1602968516431900
>> This addition would have many benefits, including:
>> * More mapping. We have tons of new mappers each
>> day, as well as a great editor for them. However,
>> many of these new mappers leave after just a few
>> edits. Examples:
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/lukastheg03
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Th3Roomi3
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>>
>>
>> --
>> @osm_washington
>> www.snowandsnow.us <https://www.snowandsnow.us>
>> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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