[Tagging] pastry and confectionery

[John F. Eldredge]

This sounds like a reasonable compromise.  Incidentally, I am an American and would not classify pastries and confections as the same thing, although one shop will sometimes sell both.  I would tend to think of a "bread shop" as a shop that sells bread, and perhaps other baked goods, but does not do its own baking.  Typically, these shops sell goods originating from a single industrial-scale bakery, and which have been returned by grocery stores after they did not sell, but which are still in good condition.



Murry McEntire <murry.mcentire at gmail.com> wrote:
> Note: I'm using on-line translation dictionaries. Please correct or
>clarify any non-English word misuse. I have tried to learn other
>languages,
>but find I am not adept at language skills. I know dictionaries can be
>misleading or wrong from experience. Years ago I ate in a Munich
>restaurant
>where the menus did not have translations and was the only place I
>encountered while in Germany where none of the staff spoke English.
>Fortunately the menu had pictures so I pointed at my main course then
>tried
>to order a soda pop. I tried three terms from my guidebook and none
>were
>understood. A couple dining at the restaurant that spoke a tiny bit of
>English tried to help and I ended up with tonic water.  Ugh.  (The main
>course was delicious.) I was informed later by a German associate that
>any
>of the terms would have worked in Berlin, but the guidebook had used
>regional terms that were a poor choice for Germany as a whole.
>
>A summary as I understand it:
>
>We currently have English labels and definitions used for tags for
>bakery
>and confectionery that have language translation mismatches, especially
>based on common usage of the words.
>
>English cultures are comfortable using one term for shops of any type
>bakery goods (bakery), but continental Europeans are not. There may be
>regulatory reasons in Europe for not grouping them as a whole.
>
>Some specifics:
>
>The English definitions for the tags are misleading or wrong. Defining
>a
>bakery as "sells bread" is highly misleading. It is more likely to be
>understood by common usage as a cake or pastry shop. Listing pastry as
>a
>product of a confectionery is wrong as the term means candy or
>chocolates
>shop. Pastries are bakery goods.
>
>backeri, boulangerie  are linked to bakery, when a much more
>appropriate
>choice would have been bread shop.
>kondertorei, feinbakdere, patisserie, viennoiseries may be linked to
>confectionery when the most accurate choice would have been bakery,
>
>English usage, common meanings and problems with technical/translation
>definitions:
>
>Americans first look to bakery (in directories, legends, web searches,
>...)
>for any type of bakery product. It appears the United Kingdom, Canada,
>and
>Australia do the same (or for bakers). Americans then may look for sub
>classes such as bread, cakes, pastry. Americans commonly refer to bread
>shops, as in "I'm going to the bread store", but often call them
>bakeries.
>Americans have understanding of cake shop, pastry shop, pie shop; but
>often
>reference them by the more general "I'm going to the bakery"Americans
>have
>no commonly used  term for shops that sell all types of non-bread
>bakery
>goods other than bakery.
>
>Cakes and pastries are generally thought to be different things
>(perhaps
>because one is made with batter and one with pastry (literally paste)
>dough), but some (nations) see pastries as a subset of cakes and other
>see
>cakes as a subset of pastries. Pastry to Americans means sweet bakery
>items
>made primarily from pastry dough. Secondary meanings can include pies,
>tarts and quiches, or meat pies. Items made from batters or various
>bread
>doughs are generally not considered pastries
>
>Although some of the translation dictionaries linked non-English terms
>for
>pastry to confectionery, this is an esoteric linking and should not be
>used. The translation definition I received for konditorei was "cake
>shop,
>confectioners shop", the second of which is wrong unless konitorei
>commonly
>specialize in zuckeri and konfekt. I do not believe they do?
>
>Since the translation dictionaries lacked specifics, I'm assuming
>feinbackerei, konditorei and patisserie can be interpreted as selling
>most
>kinds of non-bread bakery goods. Not so sure about viennoiseries which
>may
>be pastries only.
>
>
>A new proposed solution considering the most appropriate English
>definitions and the needs of both groups.
>
>A new category shop=bread be created. backerie, boulangerie should be
>linked to this shop.
>The English definition: a shop that specializes in selling breads. See
>also
>shop=bakery.
>Question: would a nationality cuisine sub tag be useful enough to
>mention
>for use?
>
>The category shop=bakery be retained; konditorei, feinbackerei,
>patisserie
>should be linked to this shop. It should also be used where both bread
>and
>non-bread bakery products sales are important, and when the specific
>baked
>good sold is unknown. A sub tag cuisine=<<nationality>> could be used
>but
>is optional and should only be used if the nationality differs from
>that of
>the location.
>The English definition: a shop that sells bakery goods such as cakes,
>pastries, pies, and bread. See also shop=bread.
>
>I would prefer not to define any other type of bakery goods shop, but
>I'll
>let the continental Europeans tell me if there is a need. Understand
>that
>if shop=pastry is added it would be defined to sell pastries (and
>perhaps
>pies or tarts) and point to the wikipedia page for pastries, so would
>not
>sell cakes, cookies or other bakery goods. If you need a distinct shop
>for
>all non-bread bakery goods; tagging with multiple nodes (or a values
>list)
>of cake shop, pastry shop and perhaps others would be needed
>
>The category shop=confectionery have its definition corrected: a shop
>that
>sells sweets: candy and chocolate; with a pointer to the wikipedia page
>for
>confectionery. See shop=bakery for pastries.
>
>Sub tags be created of the form bread=yes or bakery_good:bread=yes for
>for
>use with shop=bakery and perhaps other tags. They would include (from
>my
>previous email)
>bagel: bagels See also amenity=cafe;cuisine=bagel
>bread:  yeast bread,  artisan bread,  rustic bread,  dinner roll, hard
>roll, flat bread, soda bread, baguettes, ciabatta bread, focaccia,
>pita,
>tortilla
>cake: layer cake, snack cake, sheet cake, bundt cake, pound cake,
>sponge
>cake, cupcake, wedding cake, torte., fruit cake, nut cake.
>cobbler: cobblers, betties, buckles, crisps, crumbles, pandowdy,
>grunts,
>slumps, fruit dumplings.
>cookie: cookies, brownies, blondies, bar cookies
>donut: donuts
>pastry: baklava, croissants, danish pastry, kolachy, puff pastry (cream
>puff, eclairs), pasties, roly-poly,  strudel, turnovers (and also point
>to
>the wkipedia pastries entry)
>pie: pies, tarts, quiche
>specialty_bread:  sweet breads, monkey bread, hoiliday breads, brioche,
>challah, stollen, quick breads, banana bread, zucchini bread, buns,
>cinnamon rolls, sweet rolls, twists, corn bread, spoon bread, muffins,
>biscuits, english muffins, scones, popovers.
>
>Some might interpret specialty_bread to mean artisan bread and the like
>at
>first thought, but I have yet to encounter a better term.
>
>After seeing the common product list of bakeries in the United Kingdom
>and
>Australia,  the following sub tags.may be needed:
>sandwiches: sandwiches.
>meat_pies: meat pies, pasties.
>
>Sandwiches in this context are currently being tagged as
>amenity=fast_food,
>cuisine=sandwich and I do not expect that to change for Americans.
>Hopefully this is sufficient for the British, but I would rather
>provide a
>useful sub tag if needed rather than snub them.
>
>The bakery goods sub tag wiki page should caution against using
>shop=bakery
>and the sub tags for a business where amenity=cafe or amenity=fast_food
>and
>a cuisine sub tag are more appropriate. That while a shop may have a
>table
>or two, the expectation is products will not be consumed on the
>premises.
>
>Sub tags be created of type sweet:chocolate=yes or chocolate=yes for
>use
>with shop=confectionery.
>Sub tag values would include candy and chocolate. I am aware of many
>shops
>that specialize in one or the other (as well as ones that carry both).
>I
>did not encounter a need for other values. Candy does have a second
>meaning
>that includes chocolate, but in context of a values list I do not think
>it
>would be misinterpreted.
>
>Murry
>
>
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