[Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Wed Jan 21 11:38:20 UTC 2015

Getting all places with japanese and chinese cuisine around the globe in
Overpass: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/7b2

2015-01-21 8:09 GMT-02:00 Никита [via GIS] <
ml-node+s19327n5830778h15 at n5.nabble.com>:

> > traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia?
> This is not specific to Russia actually. Not many software will support
> tagging:
> traffic_calming:table=yes
> traffic_calming:chocker=yes
>
> Is there problem to tag this in database and covert to "traffic_calming =
> table; choker" to get support in legacy software or outdated tools?
>
> We use this pattern for almost anything in OSM that has multiple keys or
> values (different meanings actually "table"s "chocker"s):
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:disused
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:abandoned
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source
>
> Please see links above, they are in English. Also, fuel: key page was
> created at 2010.
>
> I think we should start using both tagging schemes right now:
> cuisine=simplevalueforoldsoftware
>
> *And actual tags for new software and presets*
> cuisine:japanse=yes
> cuisine:chinese=yes
>
> This is absolutely not new. See disused, abandoned.
>
> Over time we will deprecate simple tags cuisine=X and possibly shop=X.
>
>
> 2015-01-21 12:37 GMT+03:00 Marc Gemis <[hidden email]
> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5830778&i=0>>:
>
>> How do you tag traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia ?
>>
>> I'm willing to adapt my tagging, but how can I do this ? Both forms of
>> traffic calming are used at the same place sometimes, a table that is
>> smaller than the rest of the road.
>>
>> Furthermore what about cuisine ? Do you use cuisine:japanse=yes,
>> cuisine:chinese=yes ?
>>
>> If you are using all those subkeys since 2010, why aren't they documented
>> in the wiki ? I only joined the project in 2011, but have never seen this
>> being documented for all those keys...
>>
>> regards
>>
>> m.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Никита <[hidden email]
>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5830778&i=1>> wrote:
>>
>>> > Java has regular expressions as well [1], I know they are not for the
>>> every day user, but this problem also holds for OR, AND. There are a lot of
>>> people that do not understand logical expressions.
>>> Furthermore, many word editors allow to search for word boundary
>>> (defined on spaces, and other punctuation), so you could search for "coin"
>>> without finding "bitcoin". If this is not possible in JOSM, maybe it has to
>>> be added.
>>> My point is still the same. Java regexes are simpler, yes. They miss
>>> perl recursion and other perl specific stuff. God bless java language
>>> developers for doing this. But this is irrelevant to my points about wiki
>>> documentation or about need to teach *any regex* to josm user or id
>>> user.
>>>
>>> We don't use multiple values for many things:
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Key_Variations
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway#Values
>>> ... just open taginfo or do postgres query to see actual numbers.
>>>
>>> I have no idea why one would prefer
>>> semantickey=literal1;literal2;literal3 over *key:semanticsubtag=value*.
>>>
>>> For the latter:
>>> - you make simple queries even with overpassQL or josm search
>>> - you can make presets in iD or JOSM with translations in native language
>>> - you can make wiki page about it
>>> - you can send this link page to newbie
>>> - you can be sure about meaning of this value
>>>
>>> Why is there need to guess liretal values instead of semantically
>>> tagging using ":" in key. Russian community was doing this since 2010. Do
>>> English wiki or users that behind us? Is there real reason to support ';"?
>>> I was really surprised when my changes were simply reverted.
>>>
>>> Actually not that bad:
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:fuel&direction=next&oldid=400799 was
>>> here since 2010.
>>>
>>> > Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please
>>> No I didn't. Quote them.
>>>
>>> PS. Well I'm sorry for my tone if it was looking unacceptable in some
>>> messages.
>>>
>>> 2015-01-21 12:00 GMT+03:00 Dan S <[hidden email]
>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5830778&i=2>>:
>>>
>>>> Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please
>>>> STOP this thread everyone. Please.
>>>>
>>>> 2015-01-21 8:55 GMT+00:00 Никита <[hidden email]
>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5830778&i=3>>:
>>>> >> Just because one can use a regular expression to grep out a certain
>>>> >> meaning doesn't mean it's a good thing to do and will always work
>>>> > We easily revert these edits in Russia. Quite often user who want to
>>>> show
>>>> > their regex fu will fail so hard to guess actual properly of the real
>>>> world.
>>>> >
>>>> > We care about data we map.
>>>> > We document it instead of guessing by taginfo.
>>>> > We use real tags instead of regexes for users.
>>>> >
>>>> > We like our newbies. We don't want to insist to use f$#$g perl regexes
>>>> > simply to map things around them.
>>>> >
>>>> > I cannot stop you from using regex. But if I find your changsets
>>>> erroneous I
>>>> > will revert them.
>>>> >
>>>> >> In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes and no as a value.
>>>> > Wrong. It not forces you anything. You can still tag currency:X=fixme.
>>>> >
>>>> >> The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes and no. This can
>>>> >> easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense and it gives
>>>> the
>>>> >> flexibility to distinguish between equal and distinguished
>>>> importance .
>>>> > There way more tagging schemes than single Healthcare 2.0. Yes there
>>>> > differences, so what?
>>>> >
>>>> >> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch
>>>> until a
>>>> >> better tagging-scheme comes along.
>>>> > You forgot to say "among English speaking users who fail to use JOSM
>>>> search
>>>> > funtion or overpass or taginfo or wiki documentation". I don't care
>>>> about
>>>> > them.
>>>> >
>>>> >> We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type
>>>> for
>>>> >> arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have
>>>> to work
>>>> >> around.
>>>> > And obviously you choose the worst way to do this. With complicating
>>>> things
>>>> > with REGEX.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > 2015-01-21 11:42 GMT+03:00 Nadjita <[hidden email]
>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5830778&i=4>>:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On 21.01.2015 09:06, Никита wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > If you trying to parse name=school *with any regex *to map it as
>>>> >> > amenity=school* *you are wrong. OSM is not for you.
>>>> >> > If you trying to parse currency=bitcoin;coin for coin, then stop it
>>>> >> > right now. You have no idea how regexes or tags in osm work.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> While I think, you should really calm down a bit and not sound so
>>>> >> aggressive, I have to agree with you. The purpose of structuring
>>>> data is
>>>> >> not having to use a complicated, but a simple parser. Just because
>>>> one
>>>> >> can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't
>>>> mean
>>>> >> it's a good thing to do and will always work.
>>>> >> The only downside of currency:X=yes, currency:Y=yes to currency=X;Y
>>>> is
>>>> >> that it involves more typing. In fact, nobody forces us to only use
>>>> yes
>>>> >> and no as a value. The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main,
>>>> yes
>>>> >> and no. This can easily applied to a lot of values where it makes
>>>> sense
>>>> >> and it gives the flexibility to distinguish between equal and
>>>> >> distinguished importance .
>>>> >> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch
>>>> until a
>>>> >> better tagging-scheme comes along.
>>>> >> We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type
>>>> for
>>>> >> arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have
>>>> to
>>>> >> work around.
>>>> >> But please let's not drag this down to a personal level and start
>>>> >> insulting each other, this isn't going to accomplish anything but
>>>> anger.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> - Nadjita
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Tagging mailing list
>>>> >> [hidden email]
>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5830778&i=5>
>>>> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Tagging mailing list
>>>> > [hidden email]
>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5830778&i=6>
>>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Tagging mailing list
>>>> [hidden email] <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5830778&i=7>
>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> [hidden email] <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5830778&i=8>
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email] <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5830778&i=9>
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email] <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5830778&i=10>
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
> ------------------------------
>  If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion
> below:
>
> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Wiki-Edit-War-on-using-avoiding-semicolon-lists-tp5830523p5830778.html
>  To unsubscribe from Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists, click
> here
> <http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=unsubscribe_by_code&node=5830523&code=am9obi5wYWNrZXI3QGdtYWlsLmNvbXw1ODMwNTIzfDE2OTE1MDgzODE=>
> .
> NAML
> <http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=macro_viewer&id=instant_html%21nabble%3Aemail.naml&base=nabble.naml.namespaces.BasicNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NabbleNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NodeNamespace&breadcrumbs=notify_subscribers%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-instant_emails%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-send_instant_email%21nabble%3Aemail.naml>
>


--
View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Wiki-Edit-War-on-using-avoiding-semicolon-lists-tp5830523p5830795.html
Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20150121/dc5b982e/attachment-0001.html>