[Tagging] Proposed: landuse=civic_admin - looking for comments.

John Willis johnw at mac.com
Tue Mar 10 12:57:04 UTC 2015



> On Mar 9, 2015, at 8:49 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdreist at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 2015-03-09 6:55 GMT+01:00 johnw <johnw at mac.com>:
>> current draft definition:
>> 
>> A new landuse=* value for civil government buildings & complexes where citizens or services for citizens are managed. This includes legislative and executive centers, as well as administrative offices for government programs and mixed-use governmental complexes, such as most "city hall" complexes.
> 
> 
> I believe that city halls might be some sort of exception, as they often have legislation space (municipal assembly) in common with the seat of the mayor (executive), while on higher levels this is rarely the case (e.g. white house and congress). In the example of the city of Berlin (which is somehow an exception as well, as they are a "Land" and not just a city) you also have these two functions in the same building: http://www.berlin.de/orte/sehenswuerdigkeiten/rotes-rathaus/index.en.php?lang=en
> BUT: they are not open to the citizen (save for touristic visits), the services to the citizen are offered by lower level city halls (on lower admin level for "districts" (Bezirk)).

It is a seat of power, and involved in the civic governmental processes. 

I can't waltz into the White House, but it still meets the definition ( I can try to jump the fence though =} ) 


>  
>> E
>> 
>>> On Mar 8, 2015, at 9:01 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdreist at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'd see "administration" as part of the executive power, although every bigger entity, be it private or public, legislative, executive or judicial, will have some administration part.
>> 
>> 
>> If I knew nothing about the structure of government, just the buildings on the ground, I would notice that the “city hall” for many towns and small cities often (but not always) have combined complexes for both the assembly and mayor, and often offices for programs (national insurance, pension, taxes)
>> 
>> but the courthouse and the punishment system is often never in that same complex - in my experince. Is that different in places you have seen?
> 
> 
> the Tower of London comes to my mind, it is was a Royal palace as well as a prison. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_London
> Not the most recent example, but there might be more.
> 
There was an example posted about a civic complex that included courthouses, so it looks like in other places, it might be mixed even more. 

All of the differentiation might have to be through amenity or building or civic=*


>  
>> 
>> I am referring to administration in the general sense - people administer a program to do something - issue car licensing or building permits, collecting money, etc, or are involved in the creation or decision making process of those programs (leaders, legislative bodies, school boards, water boards, etc) 
> 
> 
> it's this point, where we do not meet, to me administering stuff to do something is different from legislation (setting up the rules according to which administration works). Someone issuing a car license cannot decide upon the rules, they are set up by a different entity which only sets up rules.

Yea, administration is what you think. 

I should have put an "or" in there.

Is the problem that "admin" is in the title? That I'm proposing tagging legislative buildings with "admin"?

I'm looking at it very generically - administration vs public services vs public safety. 

Do you have a suggestion for a better civic_?  "Government"seems way too broad. 


> 
> 
>> 
>> but the primary purpose of a standard courthouse has nothing to do with the creation or management of government programs. They are there for dispute resolution - between private parties, between the police and a citizen, between the government ant it’s people - but ultimately it is about dispute resolution - which could be civil or criminal.
> 
> 
> in other words, to interpret the rules (based on the primary rules (constitution), all the rules, past decisions, etc.) and applicate them to the actual case.

I think there are a lot of judges that will never get to craft laws or precedents- though they do have some flexibility I how hard or how soft to hit you with the stick, based on you breaking the established rules. 

But the courthouse is a place of judging and punishment allocation. 

It feels different than a city hall, but I think we're going to have to roll judicial in and seperately them via tags on the structures. 

> 
>  
>> 
>> if - like most police stations, fire stations, and hospitals -  they sat on separate landuses, we wouldn’t be having this discussion - as a single landuse for executive, legislative, and judicial would not only be appropriate, but practical to implement as well. 
> 
> 
> maybe we don't need a landuse at all, we could just map what is there (e.g. a courthouse, a prison, a city hall, a parking, etc.). If we want to map a mixup of different such functions into a bigger entity, we could do that also without a landuse value, e.g. amenity=civic_centre (BE Spelling).
> 

In American English, that's a theatre  event venue for plays, musicals, orchestras, etc( a Civic_service building), so that tag would be very problematic. 

There has to be a class of landuse that this all belongs to - because it does feel connected in the same way the other landuse class tags are. It would be nice to have a landuse class properly rendered to easily differentiate the centers. 

I think not having a landuse value for every major type of building is a failure of completion - the idea that the plot/land/area of a building is a landuse=* and the stuff on it is amenity or building is wonderful. I would kill off any grounds defined by amenity for a building complex (school, hospital) if I could, which I can't, so I would like to get landuse=* it as complete as possible. 

Having to understand that there are 5 different ways to tag the land around 5 different items is insane, but a natural outcome since tags were developed organically. 


>  
>> 
>> But it is impossible to implement a separate legislative and executive landuse because after mapping Washington DC, and a few capitol buildings, the first muli-use complex would make it fall apart - and the thousands of mixed-use city hall complexes in the US alone would make having separate landuses not practical, IMO. 
> 
> 
> I see. 

So just roll judicial in and differentiate everything via building/amenity tags? 


I wish it was more cut and dry, so implementing a landuse would be easier for everyone. 

Javbw
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