[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Power pole extension

Warin 61sundowner at gmail.com
Wed Feb 15 08:33:29 UTC 2017

On 15-Feb-17 05:52 PM, Jherome Miguel wrote:
> On Feb 13, 2017 4:19 PM, "Fran├žois Lacombe" <fl.infosreseaux at gmail.com 
> <mailto:fl.infosreseaux at gmail.com>> wrote:
>     Hi Warin,
>     2017-02-13 8:42 GMT+01:00 Warin <61sundowner at gmail.com
>     <mailto:61sundowner at gmail.com>>:
>         In Australia;
>         Heavy industry gets 3 phases.
>     Same in Europe, 2-phases or 3-phases depends on needs.
>     Here 3-phases for heavy industry :
>     https://www.google.fr/maps/@45.2719628,6.3749132,3a,48.9y,219.64h,93.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdoIRusd2UEOaiNkxbR5tUw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
>     <https://www.google.fr/maps/@45.2719628,6.3749132,3a,48.9y,219.64h,93.88t/data=%213m6%211e1%213m4%211sdoIRusd2UEOaiNkxbR5tUw%212e0%217i13312%218i6656%216m1%211e1>
>     2-phases for train traction (2 separate circuits of 2 phases each) :
>     From public power grid :
>     https://www.google.fr/maps/place/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.830987,4.5832895,3a,27.2y,18.11h,110.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shRm5LaCrnCyD-I8kNBVv0Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2ae4baab70!8m2!3d45.275403!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1
>     <https://www.google.fr/maps/place/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.830987,4.5832895,3a,27.2y,18.11h,110.85t/data=%213m6%211e1%213m4%211shRm5LaCrnCyD-I8kNBVv0Q%212e0%217i13312%218i6656%214m5%213m4%211s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2ae4baab70%218m2%213d45.275403%214d6.344886%216m1%211e1>
>     To traction substation :
>     https://www.google.fr/maps/place/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.8414547,4.5586151,3a,15y,304.69h,91.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2SoaNSBHWlYnq6u8vvwSRQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2ae4baab70!8m2!3d45.275403!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1
>     <https://www.google.fr/maps/place/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.8414547,4.5586151,3a,15y,304.69h,91.76t/data=%213m6%211e1%213m4%211s2SoaNSBHWlYnq6u8vvwSRQ%212e0%217i13312%218i6656%214m5%213m4%211s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2ae4baab70%218m2%213d45.275403%214d6.344886%216m1%211e1>
> For the Philippines, two or three phases for the primary are for large 
> commercial customers, but the output, it is three-phase (220/380, 
> 220/380/440, 440/760, 660/1150, 880/1530, and others, all 60 Hz). 
> Households use single-phase, either two-wire (220 volts) or three-wire 
> systems (220/440 volts, though electricity meters show "240 volts", 
> which is within the tolerance of 220 volts, the peak voltage of one 
> phase wire of the system

Errr most places this is the RMS voltage, not the peak voltage.
The 240 220 230 volts conflicts have been discussed for many years at an 
international level. Now they agree that their present tolerances 
encompass an agreed range ... that encompasses all those voltages.

> ), depending on location. The two-wire system is common on the 
> province usually served by electric cooperatives, but the three-wire 
> system is used on areas served by major private electric utilities 
> (Meralco, Visayas Electric Company/VECO, Davao Light, Cotabato Light 
> and Power, etc.)
> Traction power in the Philippines (for the Metro Manila transit 
> systems only), is rather DC only, fed from the three-phase 
> distribution systems, transformed to the traction voltage, then 
> rectified to DC. No AC traction systems still exists in the 
> Philippines, but perhaps, may be used in the future on new lines or 
> mainline electrification.
>         A few houses may get 2 phases if their load is very large ..
>         but it is unusual and a safety concern, no single room should
>         have more than one phase.
>         Even fewer houses get 3 phase .. usually where the workshop
>         has a requirement for a 3 phase motor/furnace.
>     +1 same here, 3-phases fed households tend to disapear while
>     current usage is single phase + neutral pole.
> I concur. Single-phase (line-neutral) or split-phase 
> (line-neutral-line) is the primary household distribution systems, 
> while a household customer on an area primarily using single-phase, 
> but requiring three-phase needs a separate transformer, at least the 
> line has the phases required, otherwise, the customer would require 
> the nearby distribution line to have the additional wires and the 
> dedicated transformer, or use a phase converter.
> Single-phase supplies by households may be derived from a three-phase 
> line, but a single-phase line may do. The single-phase transformers 
> may have one or two primaries (though one bushing is connected to 
> ground instead on another phase wire and serves as a surge arrestor, 
> like the case of transformers used to provide 220 volt single-phase 
> power in most provinces of the Philippines), but the secondaries may 
> be single-phase (line-neutral) or split-phase (line-neutral-line). 
> Single-phase (line-neutral) may use a transformer with one or two 
> bushings (the latter has the second bushing being a surge arrestor, 
> being connected to ground instead on another primary), but for 
> split-phase (line-neutral-line), the transformer may have one or two 
> primary bushings, but on the case of two bushings, the second one may 
> be connected to another phase or ground.
>         Transformers will have an input voltage and an output voltage,
>         usually these voltages are different.
>     Sure, currently voltage=* expects a list with upper voltage;lower
>     voltage.
>     Or voltage-up and voltage-down can be used. I'm in favor of
>     voltage:primary + voltage:secondary (+ voltage:tertiary if
>     transformer got more than 2 interfaces).
>     Another proposal will be completed later for this.
>         Most of the time these voltages will be on the lines connected
>         to the transformer (and the pole) and would be redundant.
>     Yes they have to, but a pole can carry several lines or circuits
>     in the same line. If lines/circuits are operated at different
>     voltages, which one will serve the transformer(s) exactly ?
>     Furthermore, even if a single line is supported by the pole, which
>     side of the transformer is connected to it ?
>     I'm thinking of a pole carrying a "low voltage" line used for
>     distribution, hosting a transformer at the top of it and the
>     transformer gets its power from an underground "high voltage"
>     cable rising up on the pole itself. Then you'll need to know the
>     voltages of both cable and line AND the voltages of transformer's
>     sides to say the overhead "low voltage" line is fed wheter by the
>     primary or secondary interface.
>     It's a bit complex and I see no redundancy here.
> On a multi-level pole, the line where the transformer is found may be 
> indicated by a power route relation, if there is. The pole where the 
> transformer is found may be tagged with the transformer role, and it 
> is important on lines with multiple circuits, but on single-circuit 
> lines, it is optional.
> And for a transformer feeding a low voltage line from a high voltage 
> underground cable rising on the pole (through the pole itself, or on a 
> concrete structure with pipes embedded) I found some instances of it 
> in the Philippines. One example is a pole with three single-phase 
> transformers serving as a three-phase transformer, and the primary 
> comes from underneath.
>         Switches ... usually used for isolation.
>     Can you elaborate a bit more please ?
Not certain what elaboration you need? Isolation ...is simply turning a 
line off, for maintenance/repair.
Switches on poles tend to be manual (mechanical). Switches in 
substations and stations tend to be automatic.
> On a pole with two or more levels (i.e. cross-arms), I used two solutions:
>    1. Tag the pole-mounted switch with switch=* separated by pipes 
> (|), so, for tagging a switch on the lowest cross-arm of a two-level 
> pole, it will be tagged switch=|mechanical. So, for a switch on the 
> upper cross-arm in the same situation, it is vice versa (i.e. 
> switch=mechanical|)
>    2. On a relation of the line where the switch belongs, tag the pole 
> with the switch role.
>     All the best
>     Fran├žois

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