[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Power pole extension

Jherome Miguel jheromemiguel at gmail.com
Wed Feb 15 13:49:43 UTC 2017

On Feb 15, 2017 4:42 PM, "Warin" <61sundowner at gmail.com> wrote:

On 15-Feb-17 05:52 PM, Jherome Miguel wrote:

On Feb 13, 2017 4:19 PM, "Fran├žois Lacombe" <fl.infosreseaux at gmail.com>

Hi Warin,

2017-02-13 8:42 GMT+01:00 Warin <61sundowner at gmail.com>:

> In Australia;
> Heavy industry gets 3 phases.

Same in Europe, 2-phases or 3-phases depends on needs.
Here 3-phases for heavy industry : https://www.google.fr/maps/@45

2-phases for train traction (2 separate circuits of 2 phases each) :
>From public power grid : https://www.google.fr/maps/pla
To traction substation : https://www.google.fr/maps/pla

For the Philippines, two or three phases for the primary are for large
commercial customers, but the output, it is three-phase (220/380,
220/380/440, 440/760, 660/1150, 880/1530, and others, all 60 Hz).
Households use single-phase, either two-wire (220 volts) or three-wire
systems (220/440 volts, though electricity meters show "240 volts", which
is within the tolerance of 220 volts, the peak voltage of one phase wire of
the system

Errr most places this is the RMS voltage, not the peak voltage.
The 240 220 230 volts conflicts have been discussed for many years at an
international level. Now they agree that their present tolerances encompass
an agreed range ... that encompasses all those voltages.

Possibly you think the peak voltage is the line-line voltage, right, while
RMS voltage is line-neutral voltage. Is that correct?

Meters seem to have varying ways on showing the rated voltages the meter
measures, that they may only show RMS voltage or peak-to-peak voltage, or
both. On countries using single-phase or split-phase distribution (most of
the Americas, and some Asian countries), either the RMS or peak-to-peak are
shown on the meter's rated voltage, while on countries primarily using
three-phase distribution (usually 230/400 volts), the meter shows only RMS
voltage for an ordinary single-phase customer, but on others requiring
three-phase for other applications, the meter shows both RMS and

And on my mapping work on Philippine power networks, with the RMS voltage
being 220 volts, a single-phase transformer may have a single-phase
(line-neutral) or split-phase (line-neutral-line) secondary. For a
single-phase transformer with a single phase secondary, common used by
provincial electric cooperatives, I use the RMS voltage of 220 as default,
but for a split-phase one, usually in areas served by private utilities, it
defaults to 440 volts (peak-to-peak), though the meter used for measuring
is rated by the RMS voltage of 220 volts (240 volts on the meter's labels,
fortunately, it is within the tolerance of 220-240 volts)

And on voltage tolerances, 220 volts is within tolerance of the 220-240
volt range, so does 110 or 120 volts being within the tolerance of the
100-127 volt range.

), depending on location. The two-wire system is common on the province
usually served by electric cooperatives, but the three-wire system is used
on areas served by major private electric utilities (Meralco, Visayas
Electric Company/VECO, Davao Light, Cotabato Light and Power, etc.)

Traction power in the Philippines (for the Metro Manila transit systems
only), is rather DC only, fed from the three-phase distribution systems,
transformed to the traction voltage, then rectified to DC. No AC traction
systems still exists in the Philippines, but perhaps, may be used in the
future on new lines or mainline electrification.

> A few houses may get 2 phases if their load is very large .. but it is
> unusual and a safety concern, no single room should have more than one
> phase.
> Even fewer houses get 3 phase .. usually where the workshop has a
> requirement for a 3 phase motor/furnace.
+1 same here, 3-phases fed households tend to disapear while current usage
is single phase + neutral pole.

I concur. Single-phase (line-neutral) or split-phase (line-neutral-line) is
the primary household distribution systems, while a household customer on
an area primarily using single-phase, but requiring three-phase needs a
separate transformer, at least the line has the phases required, otherwise,
the customer would require the nearby distribution line to have the
additional wires and the dedicated transformer, or use a phase converter.

Single-phase supplies by households may be derived from a three-phase line,
but a single-phase line may do. The single-phase transformers may have one
or two primaries (though one bushing is connected to ground instead on
another phase wire and serves as a surge arrestor, like the case of
transformers used to provide 220 volt single-phase power in most provinces
of the Philippines), but the secondaries may be single-phase (line-neutral)
or split-phase (line-neutral-line). Single-phase (line-neutral) may use a
transformer with one or two bushings (the latter has the second bushing
being a surge arrestor, being connected to ground instead on another
primary), but for split-phase (line-neutral-line), the transformer may have
one or two primary bushings, but on the case of two bushings, the second
one may be connected to another phase or ground.

> Transformers will have an input voltage and an output voltage, usually
> these voltages are different.

Sure, currently voltage=* expects a list with upper voltage;lower voltage.
Or voltage-up and voltage-down can be used. I'm in favor of voltage:primary
+ voltage:secondary (+ voltage:tertiary if transformer got more than 2
Another proposal will be completed later for this.

> Most of the time these voltages will be on the lines connected to the
> transformer (and the pole) and would be redundant.
Yes they have to, but a pole can carry several lines or circuits in the
same line. If lines/circuits are operated at different voltages, which one
will serve the transformer(s) exactly ?
Furthermore, even if a single line is supported by the pole, which side of
the transformer is connected to it ?
I'm thinking of a pole carrying a "low voltage" line used for distribution,
hosting a transformer at the top of it and the transformer gets its power
from an underground "high voltage" cable rising up on the pole itself. Then
you'll need to know the voltages of both cable and line AND the voltages of
transformer's sides to say the overhead "low voltage" line is fed wheter by
the primary or secondary interface.

It's a bit complex and I see no redundancy here.

On a multi-level pole, the line where the transformer is found may be
indicated by a power route relation, if there is. The pole where the
transformer is found may be tagged with the transformer role, and it is
important on lines with multiple circuits, but on single-circuit lines, it
is optional.

And for a transformer feeding a low voltage line from a high voltage
underground cable rising on the pole (through the pole itself, or on a
concrete structure with pipes embedded) I found some instances of it in the
Philippines. One example is a pole with three single-phase transformers
serving as a three-phase transformer, and the primary comes from underneath.

> Switches ... usually used for isolation.

Can you elaborate a bit more please ?

Not certain what elaboration you need? Isolation ...is simply turning a
line off, for maintenance/repair.
Switches on poles tend to be manual (mechanical). Switches in substations
and stations tend to be automatic.

Automatic switches are not limited to the substation environment, as I
encounter this on the roadside distribution lines, common in the
Philippines, as well on other Asian countries and the Americas; there are
such switches outside, on poles, and operated through radio via a
transmitter. And also do not forget to look at the picture at the table for
switch types at power=switch on OSM Wiki (url:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power=switch). But, on a
multi-level pole on a line with multiple circuits, a switch may occur at
any cross-arm.

On a pole with two or more levels (i.e. cross-arms), I used two solutions:

   1. Tag the pole-mounted switch with switch=* separated by pipes (|), so,
for tagging a switch on the lowest cross-arm of a two-level pole, it will
be tagged switch=|mechanical. So, for a switch on the upper cross-arm in
the same situation, it is vice versa (i.e. switch=mechanical|)
   2. On a relation of the line where the switch belongs, tag the pole with
the switch role.

All the best


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