[Tagging] request for review: OSM wiki rewording of tourism=motel based on Wikipedia

LeTopographeFou letopographefou at gmail.com
Mon Dec 24 11:16:14 UTC 2018


You're right, I agree with you that we need to make things clear and 
that those pages may not be rewrote, because they have been wrote 
independently, at different point in time, and as soon as you add the 
issue bringed by translations you can measure how difficult it can be, 
if one does not master English, to pick the good tag for a given country 
or make sure translations are aligned. Consequently every input (coming 
from Wikipedia or from somewhere else) is valuable.

> On a separate note, a separate wiki page for comparing places to sleep 
> sounds reasonable, but based on your concerns, I'm not sure what 
> meaningful criteria we could list there other than one based on name=*.

I was thinking on something like 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Hiking or 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_transport : You read it and 
there you have all concepts related to what you're trying to map. This 
"Sleeping accomodation" page (or any other appropriate name) would try, 
in one consolated single place, to route someone to the right tag 
(hotel, motel, hostel, camping, glamping, shelter, guest house...), 
maybe also considering some country specific contexts (and concepts 
foreigners does not know). A kind of "hub". Then, the (already existing) 
Tag wiki pages would still exist but more focused on the HOW: how to map 
an hotel, how to map a motel, how to map...

What does other people think? If I have time I can give it a try, but 
feel free to start it and people will collaborate.

Merry Christmas to everyone, a time to remember how fascinating is the 
Planet we are trying to map.

Yours,

LeTopographeFou

Le 23/12/2018 à 21:37, bkil a écrit :
> Unfortunately, if we only included the objective criteria based on a 
> high interaction between the parking lot and the rooms, then the 
> number of motels in Hungary for example would be near zero. As two of 
> you have raised concerns regarding this change, I've reverted it and 
> moved the text to my own space, see here if anyone would still like to 
> comment:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bkil/Tag:tourism%3Dmotel
>
> But then again, the current page is almost useless in its current 
> form: if we blanked the article and simply wrote "Tag an establishment 
> as tourism=motel if its name=* contains the word 'Motel'", we would be 
> providing at least as much help to mappers, if not more. This can't be 
> right.
>
> At the same time, based on the proposed criteria, I could identify a 
> large number of them around here and the result correlated very well 
> with whether their nameplate contains the word "Motel" or not. Most 
> points of my criteria are nearly objective. You simply sum them up, 
> and the higher score you get, the more confident you get in your 
> decision (a'la reCAPTCHA v3).
>
> Again, as mentioned in the text, none of those listed were 
> requirements, this should only be understood as an implication. I.e., 
> if we are talking about a hotel, it is perfectly normal that some 
> points will not apply. Also, some points may be given more weight than 
> others - so the so called "objective" points could be weighed more.
>
> On a separate note, a separate wiki page for comparing places to sleep 
> sounds reasonable, but based on your concerns, I'm not sure what 
> meaningful criteria we could list there other than one based on name=*.
>
> Let's read the Wikipedia article together and then discuss the matter 
> further. I agree that as mentioned there as well, several providers 
> use the term "motel" as a synonym for a budget hotel or pension, but 
> that's still not the original meaning and this should not bias our 
> perceptions. I've linked a few dozen in the changeset of my opening 
> question so we are on the same page.
>
> Here are my favorite ones from a mapping perspective:
> http://www.momotel.hu/
> http://www.lokomotivmotel.hu/en/photo_gallery.html
>
> I really look forward to keeping this constructive - as my motive is 
> still to help others in making their mapping decisions when in doubt.
>
> Wish you all happy holidays
>
> On Sun, Dec 23, 2018 at 5:17 PM LeTopographeFou 
> <letopographefou at gmail.com <mailto:letopographefou at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Thank you for asking.
>
>     I go a lot to either motels or hotels and I also think that the
>     difference between a motel and an hotel is mainly based on the
>     design of the place, not on the number of nights, the proximity to
>     tourist attractions or major highways or the cost of the land.
>     Consequently I disagree with most of your criteria in the "How to
>     tell apart from hotel" section and would reduce the list to
>     objective criteria based on the design of the place, i.e an high
>     interaction between the parking lot and the rooms (which often
>     means that room access is made from the parking lot). Everything
>     else may be your criteria but are not objective criteria IMHO.
>
>     Speaking of the difference with a guest house the main difference
>     would be: Is the owner a company (i.e. an incorporated business)
>     with employees (for check in, check out...) or is it a
>     self-managed business? I think the question applies also to hotels.
>
>     Also, I suggest you to sum up eveything in one Wiki page listing
>     all scenarios of sleeping places (camping, glamping, hotel, motel
>     and guest house), keeping the actual one as how to use the tags
>     (not how to choose the best one) instead of keeping 5 pages which
>     will never (?) be aligned.
>
>     Yours,
>
>     LeTopographeFou
>
>     Le 23/12/2018 à 12:05, bkil a écrit :
>>     Thank you for the insight, I'll try to figure out a better
>>     wording there. I'm also considering to improve the wording of the
>>     guest house and hotel articles in the future, though I'll need to
>>     find a way to do this without adding too much redundancy.
>>
>>     Well, what I wanted to convey in those sentences was that I'd
>>     expect the average booked nights per stay to be lower for a motel
>>     compared to a hotel.
>>
>>     Compared to renting a flat, both motel and hotel stays are
>>     considered short-term. However, if we used the exact same wording
>>     of simply "short term" on both wiki articles, we would be missing
>>     the opportunity for an important distinction: while one happily
>>     books a whole week in a hotel for the sake of enjoying the
>>     leisure, services and attractions nearby, motels by design have
>>     been more intended for transit traffic.
>>
>>     Of course I'm not talking about a hard split, as in all or
>>     nothing. Surely a number of people on the budget will stay at a
>>     motel and commute from there daily to their real destinations
>>     simply because of the cost savings, but I'd say that the core
>>     business model of most motels relies (or have historically
>>     relied) on transient use.
>>
>>     On Sun, Dec 23, 2018 at 11:17 AM Joseph Eisenberg
>>     <joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com <mailto:joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com>>
>>     wrote:
>>
>>         The one concern I have is the new sentences that suggest that
>>         hotels are “typically not [booked for ] single night” while
>>         motels are usually booked for 1 night.
>>
>>         I have certainly stayed for 2 to 3 nights at a “Motel 6” and
>>         other motels.
>>
>>         And I have never encountered problems booking rooms for a
>>         single night at 3 and 3.5 star hotels for business trips.
>>
>>         On Sun, Dec 23, 2018 at 6:34 PM bkil <bkil.hu
>>         <http://bkil.hu>+Aq at gmail.com <mailto:Aq at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>             I've made a major rewording of this tag. Please review
>>             and don't hesitate to comment or improve if I've
>>             mistakenly changed the meaning of the tag:
>>
>>             https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Atourism%3Dmotel&type=revision&diff=1755686&oldid=1561324
>>
>>             Source: based on Wikipedia and recent mapping experience:
>>             https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/65702446#map=9/47.1412/18.6632
>>
>>             It also looks like some have used the word motel for what
>>             should have been pensions and guest houses around here,
>>             I'll also fix these later.
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