[Tagging] Roles of route members (was: Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking, ...)

Peter Elderson pelderson at gmail.com
Mon Aug 19 16:21:32 UTC 2019

Richard Fairhurst <richard at systemed.net>:

> On mobile, on train, apologies for lack of formatting. :)
> Sarah - the problem is that when you say “one single simple
> instruction to the mapper: sort your route“, the instruction might be
> simple
> but carrying it out isn’t.
> Let’s say we have a cyclist, new to OSM, who wants to add a newly opened
> section to an existing route. As Peter says, doing this to said
> specification “usually requires lots of JOSM”.

That was about repairing a broken and corrupted route relation.

> The steps involved to do this
> in sorted order are:
> 1. spend half the afternoon trudging through contradictory pages on the OSM
> wiki to find out what you have to do
> 2. apparently it involves this thing called “JOSM”. Download that
> 3. apparently that involves this thing called “Java”. Download that too
> 4. learn to use this 80s throwback of a GIS program with the UI of a
> startled warthog
> 5. find route sorting stuff in JOSM somewhere
> 6. make edit
> 7. get shouted at by sociopaths in changeset comments because unwittingly
> you did something wrong

You simply can't do enough without JOSM if you really want to maintain
routes. Other method are not up to the task. Entering en new section is
easy. Yes, you have to set up and learn the editor and learn about routes
and relations. If you don't want to do that, you can't do it. It should be
easier - but it isn't. Smartphone apps will not do.

> (I have elided most of the intermediate steps.)
> That isn’t how OSM works. It might be how Wikipedia works but we are better
> than that.

No we are not. OSM is very primitive, chaotic and unreliable. If things
were better, simple edits would not be allowed to break relations.

> _If_ route ordering is to be expected, then the burden needs to be on the
> editing software, not the mapper. That means invisible support in iD, P2,
> and I’m guessing Vespucci and Go Map (I don’t know what their current
> support is like). And tbh the burden of providing patches is on the few
> people who are asking for it. Certainly I’m happy to implement something in
> P2 if it’s an afternoon’s work and I’m given a fully fleshed out algorithm
> which copes with the partly loaded relations that are standard for an
> online
> editor, but I’m not going to spend two days of dev time on something for
> which there is no great clamour outwith a couple of people on the tagging
> list.

If nobody has a better way and people who say they have solutions do not
provide that knowledge in a usable form e.g. an extraction method or
linking method that solves the problems, the only way for the likes of me
is to use detection tools and maintenance tools to order data by hand at
the mapping level, so ordinary people can use waymarkedtrails to get usable
linear gpx-s for their basecamps, route editors, trip planners, navigation
apps and devices.
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