[Tagging] [Talk-us] Trunk VS primary,

Paul Johnson baloo at ursamundi.org
Sat Dec 21 21:16:32 UTC 2019

On Sat, Dec 21, 2019 at 6:37 AM Jarek Piórkowski <jarek at piorkowski.ca>

> On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 22:30, Paul Johnson <baloo at ursamundi.org> wrote:
> >> > What I'm saying is highway=bundesstraße could be acceptable, but
> straße=bundestraße wouldn't be.  Mostly so way type objects with highway=*
> are still potentially routable.
> >>
> >> How do you propose these "potential routable" fallback routers to
> >> handle highway=Bürgersteig (a sidewalk) vs highway=Fahrradstraße (a
> >> local street where bicycles have priority)?
> >
> > Same way I already consider highway=motorway:  Tag for access.
> Assumptions are OKish, but at least in north america, motorway and trunk
> (aka freeways and expressways) are ambiguous for non-motorized modes.  Most
> states allow nonmotorized modes on motorways, but 15 don't, and about 30
> allow it when not otherwise posted, so foot=no, bicycle=no is *NOT* a safe
> assumption for freeways.  Especailly the farther west you go; for example,
> in British Columbia, Washington and Oregon (where I grew up), a motorway is
> probably safer for cyclists than your average city street with bicycle
> lanes (no oncoming traffic, parking on the pavement is not permitted at
> all, roughly 4.5m wide hard shoulders, 80-110km/h speed limits but that's
> 3m from anybody walking or cycling, versus no sidewalks, 1.5-2m wide
> bicycle lanes and 60-90 km/h surface street speed limits, with both the
> speed limits and bicycle lanes being next to never respected in the
> northwest).
> Tagging exceptions is fine, but tagging every highway=footway aka
> highway=chodnik with vehicle=no is going to be a bit silly I would
> think.
> You might know, but just to mention: the British Columbia comment is
> not accurate in most of Lower Mainland (that one bit of Upper Levels
> Highway notwithstanding). So if we are adding access tags to
> distinguish urban vs rural realities, what's wrong with
> highway=motorway as the base tag?
> >> How will a router know
> >> which highways can be used by trucks, buses, pedestrians, other than
> >> with a giant lookup table?
> >
> > highway=* is a good start, which is why I'm in favor of "lower is
> better" with the exiting system.
> I'm sorry, I'm missing some context to understand this (or was this
> meant to be "existing"?). To be more explicit, how would a router know
> not to send trucks on highway=Fahrradstraße?
> >> And if you do have a giant lookup table,
> >> wouldn't be easier to have it in editors rather than in every single
> >> data consumer?
> >
> > Not really.  UK concepts are entirely foreign to all but roadgeeks in
> North America, and, judging by AARoads and NE2's history, not even then.
> Sorry, I meant "editors" as in software, not as in humans. You specify
> the road as "Oregon freeway", and JOSM/rapiD/whatever editor add tags
> highway=motorway + bicycle=yes.

Under state law, except where bicycle=no, it appears Oregon is actually
foot=yes, bicycle=designated on all state-operated highways these days,
with the entire state highway system (or it's bicycle bypasses instead
where present) being part of that state's RCN.  Not that this says anything
about actual ridability in Oregon, since most state highways outside of
urban centers do not have bicycle lanes or hard shoulders except for
freeways.  I'm glad that Osmand has "allow motorways" as an option in
bicycle mode, as, if you have the endurance required inherent (emergency
stopping only, even for cyclists, despite potentially extreme distances
between exits; barring physical barriers or mechanical issues preventing
it, you must keep moving) as, especially in western Oregon and the Portland
area specifically, the freeway is probably your best, if not only, bet.

I'd be down for something similar to that.  I'm really not in favor of
using trunk for anything other than expressways though, mostly because
there's an upward creep problem in US tagging already and expressways are a
special case for driving anyway.

Would also be nice if there was an *actually easy* scheme for handling
presets that deal with complicated rules to explicitly tag regional
situations.  Like, for example, you're editing a highway in Oklahoma that
has minspeed=* set, bicycle=no and foot=no automatically get added.  If
that way is part of a bicycle route relation, then it gets
bicycle=designated added automatically, instead.
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