[Tagging] Dispute on tagging place=* in Turkmenistan

Allan Mustard allan at mustard.net
Wed Jan 2 03:28:57 UTC 2019

By that definition, then, calling an autonomous village with its own
council a "neighbourhood" would be erroneous, correct?

On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 10:24 PM Joseph Eisenberg <joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com>

> In OSM a neighborhood is a named part of a larger settlement, usually a
> town or suburb or city, though in Indonesia some “desa” (villages) consist
> of a dozen named “kampung” (neighborhoods).
> Suburbs are also considered parts of larger towns or cities. So a city can
> be divided into a dozen suburbs, each of which is divided into a half-dozen
> neighborhoods
> On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 11:19 AM Allan Mustard <allan at mustard.net> wrote:
>> Very interesting.  In the Turkmen case, the classifications are defined
>> in law and involve both size (though population data are secret) and type
>> of governance structure (for full details please see
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Turkmenistan#Administrative_Structure).
>> Is it fair to call a settlement a "neighbourhood" when it has a
>> governance structure (a village council with a chair who serves effectively
>> as the municipal manager/mayor)?  In my experience a "neighbourhood" lacks
>> any sort of governance structure aside from (sometimes) Neighborhood Watch.
>> apm-wa
>> On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 7:32 PM Joseph Eisenberg <
>> joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Those municipalities are relations of type=boundary and
>>> boundary=administrative with an appropriate admin_level, no?
>>> These are different from the OSM settlements, which are mapped as a node
>>> at the center of a city, town, village, hamlet or isolated dwelling or farm.
>>> While the pages suggest certain population ranges for each of these
>>> settled places, in the past they were defined by available services in
>>> England. A city had a cathedral or university, a town had a (full-time)
>>> marketplace, a village had a church, and a hamlet was too small for its own
>>> church but had more than one family. That’s the historic basis for the OSM
>>> system, though in modern times the standards are less certain.
>>> I suspect this sort of classification can work even in places that do
>>> not have good population figures available, like where I map in Indonesia.
>>> For example:
>>> a farm or isolated dwelling has only 1 or 2 households, a hamlet has a
>>> few families but no services (maybe there is a tiny kiosk or a very small
>>> place of worship)
>>> A village has some services but only for the local community; people do
>>> not travel to a village to go shopping, except from the closest farms or
>>> hamlets. Probably there is a primary school, certainly there is some sort
>>> of place of worship.
>>> A town is a significant local destination. People from the surrounding
>>> hamlets and villages will go to the nearest town to buy clothing, tools,
>>> specialty foods and other necessities. There may be some cultural and
>>> entertainment options, and usually some level of government services. Towns
>>> always have secondary education (high schools) in the countries that I have
>>> visited.
>>> A city has all this as well as major healthcare and educational
>>> institutions, and is often as administrative center for businesses,
>>> organizations (NGOs, religious) and local government. People travel to
>>> cities from the whole surrounding region, including from towns, for
>>> business, entertainment, cultural facilities etc. generally a city should
>>> have just about all of the services that a middle-class person would use
>>> (though the rich may need to go to larger cities for some specialty and
>>> luxury services - OSM doesn’t have a special class for large cities or
>>> global cities however)
>>> By population a hamlet has less than 1000 residents (often less than
>>> 100), and a city has over 50,000 (usually over 100,000), but the population
>>> cut-offs vary by region.
>>> A very isolated settlement may still qualify as a town with a relatively
>>> small population if it has the only high school, government office,
>>> supermarket and airport on a large island, for example - in this case the
>>> whole population of the island comes to the town for services even if they
>>> do not live there, so I would be comfortable tagging a settlement of 4000
>>> people as a town on an island with 200,000 people but no other settlements
>>> over 1000 people in size.
>>> This is how I tag places in eastern Indonesia, where many villages and
>>> towns are very isolated. Perhaps this is similar in your country?
>>> But in a densely populated region, like Java (where there are 120,000
>>> million people on one island), even a settlement with 20,000 people might
>>> just be a conglomeration of farming villages that hardly qualifies as a
>>> town, and a town could grow to 200,000 residents and still lack any
>>> characteristics of a city.
>>> On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 8:46 AM Allan Mustard <allan at mustard.net> wrote:
>>>> Looking for some guidance here from the tagging experts.  Please see
>>>> the dispute section on the Turkmenistan wiki discussion page
>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Turkmenistan#Disputed:_Suggested_Place_Tags_for_Administrative_Subdivisions
>>>> The nub is that I advocate classifying Turkmenistan's municipalities
>>>> based on their official status according to the host government (see the
>>>> wiki article Districts in Turkmenistan).  Another mapper, Aka_Bob,
>>>> disagrees and insists that there are OSM guidelines based on population (I
>>>> note that the OSM place=village article says a village can have up to
>>>> 10,000 population, which in the United States is laughable--that would be a
>>>> town or a city).  Aka_Bob edited that section of the wiki article
>>>> unilaterally without first consulting local mappers.  I have no intention
>>>> of entering into an edit war, but rather want to take this out to the
>>>> community for discussion.
>>>> I'd like to hear what people think.  Opening classification of Turkmen
>>>> muncipalities to free interpretation rather than a standard official
>>>> classification strikes me as a recipe for chaos, particularly since
>>>> official population data have not been published for over a decade (the
>>>> 2012 and 2017 censuses were made secret) but maybe that's just me.  What do
>>>> you think?
>>>> Best regards and Happy New Year to all!
>>>> apm-wa
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