[Tagging] shop=ice_cream vs amenity=ice_cream and OSM Wiki vs tagging

Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdreist at gmail.com
Mon Nov 11 09:48:01 UTC 2019

Am Mo., 11. Nov. 2019 um 01:10 Uhr schrieb Paul Allen <pla16021 at gmail.com>:

> On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 at 23:51, Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdreist at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> > On 10. Nov 2019, at 21:57, Paul Allen <pla16021 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I also see a clear parallel between amenity=bar and amenity=ice_cream:
>> go in, sit down
>> > and consume (there may be an option to purchase to take out).
>> I would not see sitting as a requirement for any of these two. It is for
>> a cafe, but for a bar?
> In the UK we have pubs/bars.  They are places where you sit, buy drinks,
> and consume them.

Note I didn't write a bar cannot have seats, I wrote it isn't a strict
requirement, while it is for pubs I would say.

> We also have off-licences, where you buy alcoholic drinks and take them
> off the premises
> to consume them.  I see parallels to ice cream sales.  A place with tables
> and seats serving
> only (or mainly) ice cream is amenity=ice_cream in the same way a pub is
> amenity=pub.

As stated before, I would rather tag the former as amenity=cafe
cuisine=ice_cream to avoid the ambiguity (as amenity=ice_cream can also
mean a booth or van selling ice cream over the counter).

> A place selling only (or mainly) ice cream to be consumed off the premises
> is
> shop=ice_cream in the same way that an off-licence is shop=alcohol.  Pubs
> are usually
> licenced for off sales (take out) too and many ice cream parlours will do
> takeaways of
> some sort: we have a key for that.

I don't find the analogy with alcohol very useful, it is a different topic
and the situation varies even more than for ice cream according to the
contryspecific situation (and because alcohol is generally considered more
"drug" than ice cream is, and because religious rules come into play when
it is about alcohol, etc.). You seem to refer to the British situation,
frankly, I do not know what an "off-license" is. Germany for example is
notably infamous for having very lax alcohol regulation (cheap and
available everywhere).

The distinction that I find important is between ice cream made in an
artisanal fashion (like cakes, pastry) vs. ice cream that is produced
industrially, and then for the latter maybe the distinction between
portioned ice cream like here
and those in "family containers" (i.e. big containers with more than one
"serving unit", without a cone or stick). Actually I haven't bothered so
far to tag places selling ice cream in large scale containers (because they
are less interesting on the go and in general, you would assume to be able
to buy industrial ice cream in any supermarket, and you would hardly find
any supermarket selling artisanal ice cream, at least around here).

My tag for artisanal ice_cream places would be something like "craft=*"
(meaning the ice cream is made on the premises) and I have also been using
"restaurant:type:it=gelateria" for them.

As ice cream may be of particular interest, I have also started adding
sells:ice_cream=yes to places which sell a lot of other stuff and also ice
cream (e.g. news agents and other kiosks, cafes, convenience shops,
bakeries, ticket offices, petrol stations, video stores, etc.)

I don't think amenity=cafe + cuisine=ice_cream is a good fit unless there
> are other
> cuisines, so that you can have a light meal, in which case it's a cafe not
> an ice cream
> parlour.

I don't understand your reasoning here, because I would clearly see these
(some) kind of ice cream parlours as a subclass of cafe: they have a coffee
machine, they have table service, they often also sell other stuff that is
not ice cream (not speaking about "meals" here, but about "drinks"). The
ice cream cups are prepared (like other meals). Thinking of places like
these: https://www.san-marco-eiscafe.de/
(look at the pictures to understand the difference between a simple cone
and an ice cream arrangement with sauces and fruit). They are typical for
areas in Germany with Italian migration, but aren't actually in central
Italy (have not found one in Rome).

> However well it might fit OSM syntax and semantics, mentally I don't class
> an ice cream parlour in the same category as a cafe.

it really depends on the kind of ice cream parlour. Maybe you simply don't
have the San Marco-alike in Britain?

> I'd be upset if I went to
> something represented by a cafe icon on a map only to find it was an ice
> cream
> parlour and didn't serve bacon sandwiches.  YMMV.

also this really depends, I would not expect bacon sandwiches to be found
in a cafe in Germany (could be, but the expectation for me would be table
service and selling coffee and cakes), but this is depends on the local
culture. I hope we all agree, despite using British English terms for our
tags, we will not reduce the possibilities of what can be tagged, to the
British "culinary culture" (no insult intended ;-) ).

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