[Tagging] tourism=caravan_site versus tourism=camp_site: camping with a tent

Sun Aug 16 10:37:58 UTC 2020

Indeed. It is interesting to see that caravan_site is rendered 
conditionally in OpenCampingMap (only when further tags like tents 
tents, caravans, private, groups_only, etc. are given). Camp_sites are 
always rendered as far as I can find [1] [2].

Dalaas caravan_site is not rendered [3] [4], while the caravan_site in 
Murg [5] [6] has tents=yes and is rendered.

Trusting the knowledge behind OpenCampingMap, it would seem that unless 
a caravan_site is tagged specifically with tents=yes, it is not possible 
to camp with a tent on a caravan_site.

This observation is in line with my earlier proposal to make 
caravan_site *not* allow tents/camping by default. If tents are allowed 
("They may also have some space for tents." on the wiki), then the 
caravan_site should be tagged explicitly with tents=yes.
Are there any objections against this proposed change to the 
caravan_site wiki?

Kind regards,/
Hidde
/

[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/283021236
[2] https://opencampingmap.org/#17/47.18396/9.25374/1/1/bef
[3] https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/129861804#map=17/47.12228/9.99663s 
<https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/129861804#map=17/47.12228/9.99663>
[4] https://opencampingmap.org/#16/47.1235/9.9975/1/1/bef
[5] https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/193412043
[6] https://opencampingmap.org/#16/47.1139/9.2110/1/1/bef

/
/

On 16-08-2020 08:16, Warin wrote:
> On 15/8/20 4:49 am, Hidde Wieringa wrote:
>>
>> Good day,
>>
>> I am having trouble with the tourism tags caravan_site and camp_site, 
>> specifically for the use case of finding a place to camp with a tent 
>> (so not a caravan or a camper van).
>>
>> My goal is to differentiate the two tags. Both tags allow tents, and 
>> both allow camper vans and caravans. Both tags may or may not provide 
>> facilities such as toilets, water, electricity, et cetera. In 
>> practice, the only thing that differentiates a pitch for a tent 
>> versus a pitch for a caravan or camper van, is the ground underneath 
>> (tents require some sort of soft material like grass). This 
>> differentiating property is not mentioned at all in the Wiki.
>>
>> - The tag tents=yes/no (only listed in the camp_site Wiki) would be a 
>> good way to find a place to camp with a tent, but almost none of the 
>> caravan_site have this tag. All camp_sites in OSM I have camped on, 
>> allowed tents.
>> - Some of the caravan_site have been tagged with amenity=parking or 
>> even surface=asphalt and this would mean that camping with a tent is 
>> definitely not possible.
>> - I noticed that both of the tags have status 'de facto', and no 
>> proposals have been made for the definition of said tags. I found an 
>> abandoned proposal [1] that has a good discussion about camping [2].
>> - Some camp_sites have a 'nested' polygon with a caravan_site. This 
>> seems logical, and the caravan_site can be ignored, and the camp_site 
>> can be used for camping with a tent.
>>
>> Statistics from TagInfo: camp_site has ~100,000 uses, and 
>> caravan_site has ~30,000 uses.
>>
>> I ran a quick Overpass query for a small number of caravan sites 
>> (~15) [3]. Some of them note on their website that camping with a 
>> tent is possible, and the surface of the pitches seems to be grass. I 
>> am wondering if these should be re-tagged as camp_site, or if I am 
>> missing something.
>>
>> My opinion would be that a camp_site should allow staying overnight 
>> with many types of vehicles/tents, indicated by the tags listed 
>> clearly on the wiki of camp_site. A caravan_site would allow staying 
>> overnight with vehicles only, and not allow camping with a tent. 
>> Concretely the sentence "They may also have some space for tents." on 
>> [4] is the problem. Replacing the sentence on the wiki with "Camping 
>> with a tent is not possible." would remove any ambiguity 
>> differentiating these tags.
>>
>> Any comments are welcome. I am willing to update the wiki or draft a 
>> proposal for differentiating these two tags, if necessary.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> /Hidde Wieringa/
>>
>> [1] 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site
>> [2] 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site#caravan_site_separated.3F 
>>
>> [3] https://tyrasd.github.io/overpass-turbo 
>> <https://tyrasd.github.io/overpass-turbo/?q=LyoKVGhpcyBoYcSGYmVlbiBnxI1lcmF0ZWQgYnkgdGhlIG92xJJwxIlzLXR1cmJvIHdpemFyZC7EgsSdxJ9yaWdpbmFsIHNlxLBjaMSsxIk6CsOiwoDCnHRvxKjEhW09Y8SwYXZhbl9zacSVIMWVxJfElW50cz1ub8WIwp0KKi8KW8WMdDpqc29uXVt0aW1lxaw6MjVdOwovL8SPxJTEnXIgcmVzdWzFoAooCiAgxoAgcXXEksSaxKNydCBmb3I6IMWIxYrFjMS3c8WPxZHEk8WUxZbFmMWaxZzEm8SNxaDFosWkwoDFpsaQxaNkZVsixYvFjcalIj0ixqfFk8WVxZfFmWUixbMhxZ7FoF0oe3tixKp4fX0pxb7GkHdheca5xrvGpG3GvseAxZLGqceExJXHh1vHicavc8eMx47HkG_HkseUx5bGhmVsxJRpxbHHm8ajxY7Hn8eBx6LGq8eGx4jHisepx43Hj8eRx5PHlQrIhsaScMS3xZ_HscaJxotzCsWsxJhvZHnFvj7FvsiSc2vHssaTdDs&c=BNxUhr7BxL&>
>> [4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcaravan_site
>>
>
> The web site https://opencampingmap.org/#10/48.6100/8.2400/0/1/bef is 
> an attempt to encourage mapping of camp and caravan site attributes...
>
>
>
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