[Tagging] recreational vs functional routes

Peter Elderson pelderson at gmail.com
Tue Jan 14 18:46:51 UTC 2020


In Nederland, St Jacobs Routes (Camino's to Compostela) are not
waymarked/signposted/trailblazed.

Several organisations claim to be THE authority, describing main and
alternative routes, selling organized pilgrimage or guides and travel
books, checking the described roads and passages on the ground, and
offering gpx-tracks.

We do not map those, because they are not visible on the ground. Only when
a choice has been made and the route (probably with a number of alternative
routes) is waymarked will we map them, because they can be seen on the
road. Until then it's not a real object. Anyone can make up his or her own
camino. However, when you talk to any one of the organisations, they will
insist that their routes are fixed.

I very strongly prefer only to map routes according to real markings on the
ground, however scarce.

Best, Peter Elderson


Op ma 13 jan. 2020 om 19:21 schreef brad <bradhaack at fastmail.com>:

>
>
> On 1/12/20 4:23 PM, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>
> Paris is the capital of France because it has all the main government
> facilities: the legislature, the executive, the judiciary and most
> ministries.
>
> Routes that are mapped in Openstreetmap need to be signed or marked in a
> visible way. Otherwise every Stava user will add their favorite training
> loop to the map as a running route or road cycling route.
>
> Joseph
>
> I think this is an overreaction.    There are many routes that meet the
> wiki description (and my own reasonableness test) that are not signed or
> marked.    I do see many routes in my area that should not be routes, but
> that is only a minor annoyance.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 2:02 AM Florimond Berthoux <
> florimond.berthoux at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Asking me how do I know that Eurovelo 3 is for tourism or bicycle
>> trekking is like asking me how do I know that Paris is the capital of
>> France.
>> « Is there a sign saying that Paris is the capital of France? May be we
>> should remove that tag, don't you think?... »
>>
>> You don't need sign post to have a route, do you have a sign post at the
>> intersection of those routes ?
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/45.1485/-4.1705
>> I doubt that.
>>
>> This is how the Wiki define a route:
>> « A *route* is a customary or regular line of passage or travel, often
>> predetermined and publicized. Routes consist of paths taken repeatedly by
>> people and vehicles: a ship on the North Atlantic route, a car on a
>> numbered road, a bus on its route or a cyclist on a national route. »
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:route
>>
>> So to paraphrase this for road biking route :
>> « A road bicycle *route* is a customary or regular line of passage or
>> travel, often predetermined and publicized as such. Road bicycle routes
>> consist of paths taken repeatedly by road cyclist. »
>>
>> And if you don't know then don't tag it and don't manage it.
>>
>> Le sam. 11 janv. 2020 à 23:35, Joseph Eisenberg <
>> joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com> a écrit :
>> >
>> > >  I am not against distinguishing more types of cycling routes, I am
>> all for it, as long as it's verifyable, mappable with clear tagging, and
>> manageable.
>> >
>> > +1
>> >
>> > I started using Openstreetmap because I wanted to add touring routes
>> > and recreational bike routes in RideWithGPS and then found out that
>> > http://ridewithgps.com uses Openstreetmap data which I could edit. And
>> > I get to work and take kids to school and shop by bike - I haven't
>> > owned a car for 9 years.
>> >
>> > So I would love to have more information about what streets and roads
>> > are best for getting from point A to B, and which ones are nice for
>> > training rides and which ones are fun for tours.
>> >
>> > But tags have to be verifiable: if the next mapper can't confirm that
>> > a tag as right, the data in Openstreetmap will not be maintained
>> > properly. Subjective tags cannot work.
>> >
>> > I have seen this happen: before I mapped here, I used to try to
>> > improve the bike routes in Portland Oregon for Google Maps. But since
>> > there was no definition of a "preferred" bicycle street, and it was
>> > hard to delete a preferred route once it was added, the bike layer was
>> > full of disconnected segments. Some were from old city maps of bike
>> > routes, some were based on the personal preference of the mapper, and
>> > some were actually signed or marked on the ground, but you couldn't
>> > tell them apart.
>> >
>> > If there is a sign or marking that specifies that a certain route is
>> > designed for mountain bikes or for bike racing, then sure, you can tag
>> > that. But most bike routes do not have anything to specify that they
>> > are more for commuting or more for recreation, and in that case we
>> > can't tag the distinction.
>> >
>> > Fortunately, database users (like routing applications) can look at
>> > other Openstreetmap data, like surface=* tags on ways, and external
>> > data like elevation models, to determine if a route is a difficult
>> > single-track trail through the hills versus a flat paved path along a
>> > canal, and use this to help route cyclists appropriately.
>> >
>> > - Joseph Eisenberg
>>
>> --
>> Florimond Berthoux
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>> Tagging at openstreetmap.org
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