[Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

Jarek Piórkowski jarek at piorkowski.ca
Tue Jun 30 00:42:58 UTC 2020

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 07:53, Paul Allen <pla16021 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 12:02, Jake Edmonds via Tagging <tagging at openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>> While it might be used in Paul’s area, McDonalds is not a cafe where I am from, and would put money on most British people calling it a fast food restaurant
> I am surprised that there is anywhere in the world that would glorify a
> McDonalds sit-down area with the term "restaurant."  Candle-lit quarter
> pounders for two?  Would sir like wine with that?
> However, taking another look at the wiki for fast food, I see it covers
> sit down as well as takeaway only.  Which surprised me (never having
> had to map a McD).  For me there is a very, very big distinction between
> a takeaway-only place and somewhere you can sit down to eat.  Counter-only
> service is not a biggie.  Speed of the food is somewhat important but speed
> is a continuous variable, even at a single establishment: I can go to a
> chip shop and, if there's no queue, have my order filled in under a minute;
> or I can go in and they've run out of chips and I have to wait 10 minutes
> while they fry more.  Whether or not I can sit down out of the rain
> matters far more to me.
> But we have what we have: a tag that seems specially crafted for McD,
> whether it has seating or not, as opposed to a tag for somewhere with
> no seats at all.

(Sorry for bringing this thread about cukiernias further off-topic.
This is also related to the parallel discussion that started off being
about bubble tea places.)

This is getting faintly ridiculous. It is all good and well to use
British English in OSM, but let's not extend it to mean that we have
to limit ourselves to definitions of places as they exist in parts of
the UK.  Per guidelines set out by you, a lot of establishments mapped
as cafes in OSM aren't cafes (Starbuckses, Costas, and anything even
remotely similar), and a lot of establishments mapped as fast_food are
actually cafes (McDonald's and anything similar). I'm half-expecting
to hear that a Starbucks is actually a bar with drink:coffee=only.

At some point we have to draw a line and say that OSM tagging of
almost a million objects is unlikely to be changed, regardless of what
the words strictly mean in British English.

McDonald's is an extremely common type of gastronomic service in
American-like-culture world: you place an order from a fixed menu,
food is prepared from pre-made supplies, possibly being warmed or
grilled but not a meal fully cooked to order, there is normally no
table service, there is usually casual seating in the establishment,
and takeaway trade is also quite high. There is no way
amenity=fast_food is "special crafted for McD".

Here's a local shawarma place near me, serving wraps or plates with
assorted vegetables, sauces, and meats, assembled in front of the
customer from prepared ingredients (links lead to images hosted on
Google servers):
- there is some non-fancy seating and there is also a lot of takeaway
trade: https://goo.gl/maps/ve2YXgi29z8jstdH6
- ingredients are pre-chopped, meat is cooking on a vertical
rotisserie, nothing is fried in a back kitchen:

Here is an American import in Manchester that operates on the same
principles: https://goo.gl/maps/HKxevHp8rpceQw8RA ,

How should my shawarma place be tagged per British English? Is it a
cafe even though it doesn't have a back kitchen and doesn't serve
cooked meals? A fast_food? But it has seating. Surely not a candle-lit
restaurant. shop=food perhaps? amenity=fast_food_with_seating?


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