[Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

pangose at riseup.net pangose at riseup.net
Fri Mar 27 09:07:34 UTC 2020

Hi Simon.

Do you have a link? The Municipality I live in has sensible names in WD https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3240427

Does it matter to us in OSM if it "has the name"? I'm thinking that we outsource all the naming to WD to deal with and fight over.
In OSM we could instead concentrate on e.g. what language codes to display on osm.org e.g. name_osm=sv for a city with dominant Swedish population and name_osm=se for a town/city where most are Sami.
In the case of double naming on the ground we could have something like: name_osm= code1 / code2
Where code1 is the e.g. the Welsh and code2 is the English name.

The idea in these cases is the we get rid of all other name tags that can be stored and curated better in WD.

On March 25, 2020 10:48:45 PM GMT+01:00, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> wrote:
>Note that lots of the wikidata names are nonsense and are simply
>from the wikipedia page name (which a wp page has to have, but it
>doesn't imply that the object actually has a name in the language of
>wikipedia you are looking at). For example the municipality I live in
>has a German and a Swiss-German name, it -doesn't- have names in any of
>the other 31 languages that are listed.
>Am 25.03.2020 um 11:00 schrieb pangose at riseup.net:
>> Honestly I don't think it makes sense for OSM to have names at all on
>> objects which has a Wikidata reference. We are just too small a
>> community to keep this updated and it has little value to duplicate
>> the efforts made by others.
>> If any names I suggest we have a bot autoupdating all name tags
>> according to the values in Wikidata. If there is no Wikidata item it
>> should be found/created.
>> It really is'nt hard to populate a map with geographical data from
>> and query the names the user wants to see from WD.
>> This offloads a huge burden as I see it.
>> All our tools that currently invites our users to include a name
>> be adapted so that the user is aware that OSM is about geodata and
>> names are for WD and best stored/updated there.
>> If we allow a name to be set only when no qid we avoid the bulk of
>> these problems.
>> When a qid is set a bot could remove all names for languages already
>> present in WD.
>> On March 25, 2020 10:45:03 AM GMT+01:00, Andrew Hain
>> <andrewhainosm at hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>     Why on earth would we not (excluding exceptional copyright
>>     want to have lots of different name:XX tags?
>>     --
>>     Andrew
>>     *From:* Frederik Ramm <frederik at remote.org>
>>     *Sent:* 25 March 2020 09:26
>>     *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
>>     <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
>>     *Subject:* [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx
>>     Hi,
>>     the "name:xx" tags are something of an exception in OSM because
>>     while we
>>     defer to "local knowledge" as the highest-ranking source
>>     this
>>     is not being done for name:xx tags. It is possible for no single
>>     citizen
>>     of the city of Karlsruhe to know its Russian name, but still a
>>     name could exist. Who is the highest-ranking source for that?
>>     My guess is that about 5% of name:xx tags in OSM actually
>represent a
>>     unique name in its own right; all others are either copies of the
>>     tag ("this city does not have its own name in language XX but I
>>     every city to have a name:xx tag so I'll just copy the name
>tag"), or
>>     transliterations (or, worst case, even literal translations).
>>     A while ago we had a longer discussion about Esperanto names; in
>>     discussion, it was questioned whether Esperanto could be in the
>>     name tag
>>     but nobody disputed that adding name:eo tags is ok, even though
>>     Esperanto is an invented (or "constructed") language.
>>     Yesterday someone added a few dozen Klingon names to countries in
>>     OSM. I
>>     have reverted that because of a copyright issue, but I think we
>>     need to discuss which languages we want to accept for name:xx
>>     In my opinion, a name:xx tag should only be added if you can
>>     demonstrate
>>     that people natively speaking the living language xx are actually
>>     using
>>     this name for this entity. I think we have a very unhealthy
>>     inflation of
>>     names in OSM that are added by "single-purpose mappers" - they
>>     come in,
>>     stick a name:my-favourite-language tag onto everything, and go
>>     again. Nobody knows if these names are even correct, and nobody
>>     for their maintenance. The country North Macedonia changed its
>>     almost one year ago, yet roughly half of its ~ 170 name tags are
>>     what they were before this change. Nobody cares; these names
>suggest a
>>     data richness that is not backed up by an actual living community
>>     cares for them.
>>     What are your opinions on which languages should be accepted in
>>     tags? What do you think about
>>     * niche constructed languages (say, FredLang which has 2 words I
>>     invented just now)
>>     * popular constructed languages (Klingon, Elvish) - note place
>>     names in
>>     these languages will often be algorithmically derived from the
>>     or local name
>>     * "serious" constructed languages (Esperanto)
>>     * languages that once existed but are not natively spoken any
>>     (Roman)
>>     * languages that are natively spoken but their speakers do not
>>     their own name for the entity in question (instead they use the
>>     name the locals use, possibly transcribed into a different
>>     * ...
>>     Or if you don't have the time to think about this in detail, just
>>     answer
>>     the question: tlhIngan Hol - Hlja' or ghobe'?
>>     Bye
>>     Frederik
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