[Tagging] surface=gravel problems

[Peter Elderson]

I can't see that altering the wiki would help much. Gravel comes in many
sizes and mixes, so fine gravel is still gravel.

Peter Elderson


Op vr 16 apr. 2021 om 08:46 schreef Volker Schmidt <voschix at gmail.com>:

> I acknowledge there is a problem. I started out putting "gravel" on many
> maintained unpaved roads, only to look up the wiki some years later. I know
> use "fine_gravel" (taginfo 170k uses), which broadly corrisponds to the
> "gravel" of "gravel bikes".
> So, yes,  most of my "gravel" roads are really "fine_gravel", but I have
> no idea how widespread it is, and also how much it depends of the mapper's
> mother tongue.
> I would not redefine the value "gravel", rather put a warning on the page,
> pointing out that we have this wide spread confusion, and invite mappers to
> consider "fine_gravel".
>
> Il Gio 15 Apr 2021, 10:00 Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
> tagging at openstreetmap.org> ha scritto:
>
>> For long time this tag was described at Key:surface page as
>> "Broken/crushed rock with sharp edges, known as ballast on railways.
>> Usually loosely arranged.
>> Typical size for road and surface construction range between 4 and 8 cm".
>>
>> ( https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface )
>>
>>
>> But it turns out that surface=gravel is primarily used for roads where
>> far smaller
>> pieces of rocks are used.
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> It is result of
>> - "gravel roads" term is often used in many countries for something where
>> far smaller pieces
>>   of rock are used, some of such roads would qualify for
>> surface=compacted.
>>   See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravelsign2.jpg
>> - "gravel" and equivalent terms in other languages is often used by
>> people to refer to pieces
>>   of rock far smaller than 4cm
>> - there was not good tag for roads with surface of small loose gravel
>>   (surface=fine_gravel at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface
>> has
>>   "A multilayer pavement with a stone or gravel basis and a topmost
>> surface of firm, granular grit,
>>   basalt or quartz," what anyway excluded cases of some gravel thrown on
>> earth/mud/drt )
>> - surfaces matching old Wiki definitions are existing but really rare
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> How one may know that Wiki definition mismatches actual use?
>>
>> assumption:
>> Surfacing roads/paths/etc with track ballast-sized pieces of gravel is
>> extremely rare
>> (though it happens)
>>
>> but in actual use surface=gravel is extremely common, far more common that
>> old Wiki definition.
>>
>> So actual use clearly mismatches wiki definition.
>> In addition, many people using surface=gravel were unaware of this
>> definition and unaware
>> that such surfaces described in Wiki actually exist!
>>
>> See
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2021-March/014445.html
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> So:
>>
>> It turns out that surface=gravel is for anything from "basically
>> compacted" to
>> "basically track ballast".
>>
>> I recommend checking https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface in
>> your language
>> and updating definition to match actual tag use.
>>
>> It would be nice to find some good tagging for surfaces like
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg
>>
>> surface=track_ballast? surface=huge_gravel? surface=ballast?
>>
>> It would be also nice to find some more specific values for
>> cases of small gravel thrown on mud/dirt/grass - as surface=gravel
>> turns out to be very unspecific ability to tag this in detail would be
>> great
>> (useful especially for cyclists)
>>
>> surface=small_gravel? Something else?
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> PS AAAARAGAGAHHA. Tag used over 1.5 million times had actual use and OSM
>> Wiki
>> definition completely and utterly mismatched.
>>
>> And we need new tags and resurvey of 1 500 000 elements to have useful
>> information about surface.
>>
>> Right now surface=gravel may be both
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg
>> and
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravelsign2.jpg
>> that for many purposes are worth distinguishing.
>>
>>
>> Arghhh.
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