[Tagging] surface=gravel problems
Mateusz Konieczny
matkoniecz at tutanota.com
Sat Apr 17 18:48:36 UTC 2021
Yes, I changed it recently on Wiki to document actual use.
See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Map_Features:surface&diff=2123632&oldid=2121665
and
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:surface%3Dgravel&action=history
More improvements likely would be useful,
it seems to me that dirt and earth descriptions at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Map_Features:surface
-- that is displayed at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface
are also mismatching actual use).
Apr 17, 2021, 19:51 by bradhaack at fastmail.com:
> I'm also one of those who has tagged many gravel roads as gravel.
> The description on the wiki there now seems good to me:
> "This tag has very large meaning range. Used for cases ranging from huge gravel pieces like track ballast used as surface, through small pieces of gravel to compacted surface."
> I didn't see that it was changed recently?
> It sounds like the tag is used consistently with the way most people think of a gravel road. It sounds like this is true not just in my area, but worldwide?
>
>
>
> On 4/16/21 1:44 AM, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:
>
>> The problem is that basically all surface=gravel mismatched supposed definition.
>>
>> So pretending that surface=gravel is anything else except "any kind of gravel, small
>> or large" would be pointless.
>>
>> I would rather invent new values less likely to be misinterpreted
>>
>> Something like
>> surface=track_ballast (?) / surface=huge_gravel (?) / surface=ballast / surface=rubble (???)
>> for >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg
>>
>> And surface=small_gravel or something else for
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravel_road,_car_in_viewfield_for_scale.jpg
>>
>> And rersurvey, with retagging to more precise values (surface=gravel is still useful,
>> as surface=unpaved may be also for example surface=sand)
>>
>> Apr 16, 2021, 08:41 by >> voschix at gmail.com>> :
>>
>>> I acknowledge there is a problem. I started out putting "gravel" on many maintained unpaved roads, only to look up the wiki some years later. I know use "fine_gravel" (taginfo 170k uses), which broadly corrisponds to the "gravel" of "gravel bikes".
>>> So, yes, most of my "gravel" roads are really "fine_gravel", but I have no idea how widespread it is, and also how much it depends of the mapper's mother tongue.
>>> I would not redefine the value "gravel", rather put a warning on the page, pointing out that we have this wide spread confusion, and invite mappers to consider "fine_gravel".
>>>
>>> Il Gio 15 Apr 2021, 10:00 Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <>>> tagging at openstreetmap.org>>> > ha scritto:
>>>
>>>> For long time this tag was described at Key:surface page as
>>>> "Broken/crushed rock with sharp edges, known as ballast on railways. Usually loosely arranged.
>>>> Typical size for road and surface construction range between 4 and 8 cm".
>>>>
>>>> ( >>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface>>>> )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But it turns out that surface=gravel is primarily used for roads where far smaller
>>>> pieces of rocks are used.
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> It is result of
>>>> - "gravel roads" term is often used in many countries for something where far smaller pieces
>>>> of rock are used, some of such roads would qualify for surface=compacted.
>>>> See >>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravelsign2.jpg
>>>> - "gravel" and equivalent terms in other languages is often used by people to refer to pieces
>>>> of rock far smaller than 4cm
>>>> - there was not good tag for roads with surface of small loose gravel
>>>> (surface=fine_gravel at >>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface>>>> has
>>>> "A multilayer pavement with a stone or gravel basis and a topmost surface of firm, granular grit,
>>>> basalt or quartz," what anyway excluded cases of some gravel thrown on earth/mud/drt )
>>>> - surfaces matching old Wiki definitions are existing but really rare
>>>> >>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> How one may know that Wiki definition mismatches actual use?
>>>>
>>>> assumption:
>>>> Surfacing roads/paths/etc with track ballast-sized pieces of gravel is extremely rare
>>>> (though it happens)
>>>>
>>>> but in actual use surface=gravel is extremely common, far more common that
>>>> old Wiki definition.
>>>>
>>>> So actual use clearly mismatches wiki definition.
>>>> In addition, many people using surface=gravel were unaware of this definition and unaware
>>>> that such surfaces described in Wiki actually exist!
>>>>
>>>> See >>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2021-March/014445.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> So:
>>>>
>>>> It turns out that surface=gravel is for anything from "basically compacted" to
>>>> "basically track ballast".
>>>>
>>>> I recommend checking >>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface>>>> in your language
>>>> and updating definition to match actual tag use.
>>>>
>>>> It would be nice to find some good tagging for surfaces like
>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg
>>>>
>>>> surface=track_ballast? surface=huge_gravel? surface=ballast?
>>>>
>>>> It would be also nice to find some more specific values for
>>>> cases of small gravel thrown on mud/dirt/grass - as surface=gravel
>>>> turns out to be very unspecific ability to tag this in detail would be great
>>>> (useful especially for cyclists)
>>>>
>>>> surface=small_gravel? Something else?
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> PS AAAARAGAGAHHA. Tag used over 1.5 million times had actual use and OSM Wiki
>>>> definition completely and utterly mismatched.
>>>>
>>>> And we need new tags and resurvey of 1 500 000 elements to have useful information about surface.
>>>>
>>>> Right now surface=gravel may be both
>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg
>>>> and
>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravelsign2.jpg
>>>> that for many purposes are worth distinguishing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Arghhh.
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>>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________Tagging mailing list>> Tagging at openstreetmap.org>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
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