[Tagging] surface=gravel problems

Mateusz Konieczny matkoniecz at tutanota.com
Sat Apr 17 18:48:36 UTC 2021


Yes, I changed it recently on Wiki to document actual use.

See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Map_Features:surface&diff=2123632&oldid=2121665
and
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:surface%3Dgravel&action=history

More improvements likely would be useful,
it seems to me that dirt and earth descriptions at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Map_Features:surface
-- that is displayed at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface 
are also mismatching actual use).


Apr 17, 2021, 19:51 by bradhaack at fastmail.com:

> I'm also one of those who has tagged many gravel roads as gravel. 
>  The description on the wiki there now seems good to me:
>  "This tag has very large meaning range. Used for cases ranging from    huge gravel pieces like track ballast used as surface, through small    pieces of gravel to compacted surface."
>  I didn't see that it was changed recently?
>  It sounds like the tag is used consistently with the way most people    think of a gravel road.   It sounds like this is true not just in my    area, but worldwide?   
>  
>  
>  
> On 4/16/21 1:44 AM, Mateusz Konieczny      via Tagging wrote:
>
>> The problem is that basically all surface=gravel mismatched        supposed definition.
>>
>> So pretending that surface=gravel is anything else except        "any kind of gravel, small
>> or large" would be pointless.
>>
>> I would rather invent new values less likely to be        misinterpreted
>>
>> Something like
>> surface=track_ballast (?) / surface=huge_gravel (?) /        surface=ballast / surface=rubble (???)
>> for >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg
>>
>> And surface=small_gravel or something else for 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravel_road,_car_in_viewfield_for_scale.jpg
>>
>> And rersurvey, with retagging to more precise values        (surface=gravel is still useful, 
>> as surface=unpaved may be also for example surface=sand)
>>
>> Apr 16, 2021, 08:41 by >> voschix at gmail.com>> :
>>
>>> I acknowledge there is a problem. I started out putting            "gravel" on many maintained unpaved roads, only to look up            the wiki some years later. I know use "fine_gravel" (taginfo            170k uses), which broadly corrisponds to the "gravel" of            "gravel bikes". 
>>> So, yes,  most of my "gravel" roads are really            "fine_gravel", but I have no idea how widespread it is, and            also how much it depends of the mapper's mother tongue.
>>> I would not redefine the value "gravel",            rather put a warning on the page, pointing out that we have            this wide spread confusion, and invite mappers to consider            "fine_gravel".
>>>
>>> Il Gio 15 Apr 2021, 10:00 Mateusz            Konieczny via Tagging <>>> tagging at openstreetmap.org>>> >            ha scritto:
>>>
>>>> For long time this tag was described at Key:surface                page as 
>>>> "Broken/crushed rock with sharp edges, known as                ballast on railways. Usually loosely arranged.
>>>> Typical size for road and surface construction range                between 4 and 8 cm".
>>>>
>>>> ( >>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface>>>>  )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But it turns out that surface=gravel is primarily                used for roads where far smaller 
>>>> pieces of rocks are used.
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> It is result of 
>>>> - "gravel roads" term is often used in many countries                for something where far smaller pieces
>>>>   of rock are used, some of such roads would qualify                for surface=compacted.
>>>>   See >>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravelsign2.jpg
>>>> - "gravel" and equivalent terms in other languages is                often used by people to refer to pieces
>>>>   of rock far smaller than 4cm
>>>> - there was not good tag for roads with surface of                small loose gravel 
>>>>   (surface=fine_gravel at >>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface>>>>  has
>>>>   "A multilayer pavement with a stone or gravel basis                and a topmost surface of firm, granular grit,
>>>>   basalt or quartz," what anyway excluded cases of                some gravel thrown on earth/mud/drt )
>>>> - surfaces matching old Wiki definitions are existing                but really rare 
>>>>   >>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> How one may know that Wiki definition mismatches                actual use?
>>>>
>>>> assumption:
>>>> Surfacing roads/paths/etc with track ballast-sized                pieces of gravel is extremely rare
>>>> (though it happens)
>>>>
>>>> but in actual use surface=gravel is extremely common,                far more common that
>>>> old Wiki definition.
>>>>
>>>> So actual use clearly mismatches wiki definition.
>>>> In addition, many people using surface=gravel were                unaware of this definition and unaware
>>>> that such surfaces described in Wiki actually exist!
>>>>
>>>> See >>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2021-March/014445.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> So:
>>>>
>>>> It turns out that surface=gravel is for anything from                "basically compacted" to
>>>> "basically track ballast".
>>>>
>>>> I recommend checking >>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface>>>>  in your language
>>>> and updating definition to match actual tag use.
>>>>
>>>> It would be nice to find some good tagging for                surfaces like
>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg
>>>>
>>>> surface=track_ballast? surface=huge_gravel?                surface=ballast?
>>>>
>>>> It would be also nice to find some more specific                values for 
>>>> cases of small gravel thrown on mud/dirt/grass - as                surface=gravel
>>>> turns out to be very unspecific ability to tag this                in detail would be great
>>>> (useful especially for cyclists)
>>>>
>>>> surface=small_gravel? Something else?
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> PS AAAARAGAGAHHA. Tag used over 1.5 million times had                actual use and OSM Wiki
>>>> definition completely and utterly mismatched.
>>>>
>>>> And we need new tags and resurvey of 1 500 000                elements to have useful information about surface.
>>>>
>>>> Right now surface=gravel may be both 
>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg
>>>> and
>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravelsign2.jpg
>>>> that for many purposes are worth distinguishing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Arghhh.
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>>>> Tagging at openstreetmap.org
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>>>>
>>
>>
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>>

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