[Tagging] surface=gravel problems
brad
bradhaack at fastmail.com
Sat Apr 17 22:33:37 UTC 2021
The ground/dirt/earth distinctions are redundant & confusing. All the
choices for surface seem like too many choices. A typical backroad or
trail around here varies quite a bit along the way, it could be natural
dirt & rock, it could be very rocky, there may be a little gravel put
down a while ago. Oftentimes unpaved is the best tag (along with
smoothness).
On 4/17/21 12:48 PM, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:
> Yes, I changed it recently on Wiki to document actual use.
>
> See
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Map_Features:surface&diff=2123632&oldid=2121665
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Map_Features:surface&diff=2123632&oldid=2121665>
> and
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:surface%3Dgravel&action=history
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:surface%3Dgravel&action=history>
>
> More improvements likely would be useful,
> it seems to me that dirt and earth descriptions at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Map_Features:surface
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Map_Features:surface>
> -- that is displayed at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface>
> are also mismatching actual use).
>
>
> Apr 17, 2021, 19:51 by bradhaack at fastmail.com:
>
> I'm also one of those who has tagged many gravel roads as gravel.
> The description on the wiki there now seems good to me:
> "This tag has very large meaning range. Used for cases ranging
> from huge gravel pieces like track ballast used as surface,
> through small pieces of gravel to compacted surface."
> I didn't see that it was changed recently?
> It sounds like the tag is used consistently with the way most
> people think of a gravel road. It sounds like this is true not
> just in my area, but worldwide?
>
>
>
> On 4/16/21 1:44 AM, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:
>> The problem is that basically all surface=gravel mismatched
>> supposed definition.
>>
>> So pretending that surface=gravel is anything else except "any
>> kind of gravel, small
>> or large" would be pointless.
>>
>> I would rather invent new values less likely to be misinterpreted
>>
>> Something like
>> surface=track_ballast (?) / surface=huge_gravel (?) /
>> surface=ballast / surface=rubble (???)
>> for
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg
>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg>
>>
>> And surface=small_gravel or something else for
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravel_road,_car_in_viewfield_for_scale.jpg
>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravel_road,_car_in_viewfield_for_scale.jpg>
>>
>> And rersurvey, with retagging to more precise values
>> (surface=gravel is still useful,
>> as surface=unpaved may be also for example surface=sand)
>>
>> Apr 16, 2021, 08:41 by voschix at gmail.com <mailto:voschix at gmail.com>:
>>
>> I acknowledge there is a problem. I started out putting
>> "gravel" on many maintained unpaved roads, only to look up
>> the wiki some years later. I know use "fine_gravel" (taginfo
>> 170k uses), which broadly corrisponds to the "gravel" of
>> "gravel bikes".
>> So, yes, most of my "gravel" roads are really "fine_gravel",
>> but I have no idea how widespread it is, and also how much it
>> depends of the mapper's mother tongue.
>> I would not redefine the value "gravel", rather put a warning
>> on the page, pointing out that we have this wide spread
>> confusion, and invite mappers to consider "fine_gravel".
>>
>> Il Gio 15 Apr 2021, 10:00 Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging
>> <tagging at openstreetmap.org
>> <mailto:tagging at openstreetmap.org>> ha scritto:
>>
>> For long time this tag was described at Key:surface page as
>> "Broken/crushed rock with sharp edges, known as ballast
>> on railways. Usually loosely arranged.
>> Typical size for road and surface construction range
>> between 4 and 8 cm".
>>
>> ( https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface
>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface> )
>>
>>
>> But it turns out that surface=gravel is primarily used
>> for roads where far smaller
>> pieces of rocks are used.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> It is result of
>> - "gravel roads" term is often used in many countries for
>> something where far smaller pieces
>> of rock are used, some of such roads would qualify for
>> surface=compacted.
>> See
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravelsign2.jpg
>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravelsign2.jpg>
>> - "gravel" and equivalent terms in other languages is
>> often used by people to refer to pieces
>> of rock far smaller than 4cm
>> - there was not good tag for roads with surface of small
>> loose gravel
>> (surface=fine_gravel at
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface
>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface> has
>> "A multilayer pavement with a stone or gravel basis and
>> a topmost surface of firm, granular grit,
>> basalt or quartz," what anyway excluded cases of some
>> gravel thrown on earth/mud/drt )
>> - surfaces matching old Wiki definitions are existing but
>> really rare
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg
>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> How one may know that Wiki definition mismatches actual use?
>>
>> assumption:
>> Surfacing roads/paths/etc with track ballast-sized pieces
>> of gravel is extremely rare
>> (though it happens)
>>
>> but in actual use surface=gravel is extremely common, far
>> more common that
>> old Wiki definition.
>>
>> So actual use clearly mismatches wiki definition.
>> In addition, many people using surface=gravel were
>> unaware of this definition and unaware
>> that such surfaces described in Wiki actually exist!
>>
>> See
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2021-March/014445.html
>> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2021-March/014445.html>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> So:
>>
>> It turns out that surface=gravel is for anything from
>> "basically compacted" to
>> "basically track ballast".
>>
>> I recommend checking
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface
>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface> in your
>> language
>> and updating definition to match actual tag use.
>>
>> It would be nice to find some good tagging for surfaces like
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg
>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg>
>>
>> surface=track_ballast? surface=huge_gravel? surface=ballast?
>>
>> It would be also nice to find some more specific values for
>> cases of small gravel thrown on mud/dirt/grass - as
>> surface=gravel
>> turns out to be very unspecific ability to tag this in
>> detail would be great
>> (useful especially for cyclists)
>>
>> surface=small_gravel? Something else?
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> PS AAAARAGAGAHHA. Tag used over 1.5 million times had
>> actual use and OSM Wiki
>> definition completely and utterly mismatched.
>>
>> And we need new tags and resurvey of 1 500 000 elements
>> to have useful information about surface.
>>
>> Right now surface=gravel may be both
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg
>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg>
>> and
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravelsign2.jpg
>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravelsign2.jpg>
>> that for many purposes are worth distinguishing.
>>
>>
>> Arghhh.
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>>
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