[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - catholic

[Guy Godfroy]

Hello Bert and thanks for your developed answer.

So you think that grouping all rites that are in full communion as the
catholic church can lead to the expression of domination. I do not share
this vision. Actually I think the opposite, since the current use of
denomination=catholic (despite the wiki page advice) means implicitly
roman_catholic. To me, that is not fair to the other rites.

Also, rites in full communion are accepting each other ; that means that
a traveling Catholic looking for a place of worship can totally go to a
catholic place with a different rite than they are used to, they won't
lack anything spiritually. Spending the rest of their life to a
different place with a different rite isn't morally wrong for any of the
churches that are in full communion, this isn't apostasy.

When a church isn't in full communion with the great catholic church,
then they both acknowledge that they are not in full communion. And even
is they may adopt term "catholic" as well, that won't be "catholic"
alone, for example the Old Catholic.

Le 10/08/2021 à 16:09, Bert -Araali- Van Opstal a écrit :
> The arguments of Greg and Mateusz are very valid.
> 
> There are several reasons we should not support making a specific
> religious oriented subkey or semantics to improve the correct use of the
> key:denomination:
> 
> 1 denomination is a general term, very suitable to describe the
> diversity amongst different  churches, faiths or whatever you call
> them... applicable in all religions.
> 2 neutrality in OSM, both to avoid expression or domination of one
> religion to another, vandalism. All denominations in one key forces a
> mapper to treat them all equally. The introduction of a subkey
> semantically named "catholic", might express a certain preference or
> even claim of a certain denomination on the semantic name. Catholic is
> used by different churches within Christianity and in different context,
> well described and summarized in
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicity
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicity>
> 3 high diversity and complexity: turning already biased denomination
> values into subkeys does not improve simplicity or ease of use and
> interpretation, accuracy. In the contrary, it makes it more complex. If
> we would follow this data scheme one would have and see the creation of
> denomination subkeys, as much diverse and lengthy as the list on our
> wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:denomination
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:denomination>
> 
> I suggest to improve our wiki on the page. The situation and need you
> describe, particularly for Catholics,  is of course existing. The
> introduction of "Catholic" as a valid value in my perception justified
> and introduced for this particular case, with the advise in the wiki of
> being more specific by using one of the other denomination, more
> specific and less biased values.
> If we want to improve accuracy, remain with a simple and neutral tagging
> solution, improve the definition of catholic on the wiki page value
> table. In the process of doing so add more context and explain why it
> was introduced.  Not as to refer to roman_catholic church in general or
> other catholic denominations, but to cater for the diversity within,
> being it as different opinions on communion, adherence to the bishop of
> Rome, or being Catholic and reformed (Anglicans and Lutherians call
> themselves also Catholics, within a different context).
> Mappers should be able to determine and use the denomination values
> within the correct context as intended on our wiki, no matter what their
> own religion or denomination is. We can't expect every mapper, to be an
> expert in the matter. In complex and biased situations like Catholicism,
> the same key provides a value to express this as well as the values to
> be more accurate and specific. An example for other tagging schemes I
> would say rather then a shortcoming which needs to be resolved.
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> Bert Araali
> 
> On 10/08/2021 00:55, Greg Troxel wrote:
>> Guy Godfroy <guy.godfroy at gugod.fr> writes:
>>
>>> Anyway I still disagree. On a semantic point of view, being catholic and
>>> following the roman, greek, armenian or byzantine rite are totally
>>> unrelated. Honestly, I think having one single denomination=catholic
>>> even without another key would be more correct than the present situation.
>> Do you have a reference to scholarly work in comparative religion that
>> supports the view that the there is a Catholic denomination which has
>> sub-denominations within it?  This does not seem like parallel structure
>> to the many denomimations that consider themselves Protestant.
>>
>> Also, it seems that Catholic is (in the outside-of-OSM world) considered
>> an abbrevation/synonum for Roman Catholic, and I would not have thought
>> it reasonable to refer to members of a Greek Orthodox church as
>> Catholics.  And, it seems that there is one denomination "Eastern
>> Orthodox" with 7 national churches, and another "Coptic Orthodox".
>>
>> I'm not an expert in this, but I have a general reaction that OSM
>> tagging should be informed by consensus nomenclature of professional
>> scholarship of the things being tagged.
>>
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