[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - catholic

[Bert -Araali- Van Opstal]

On 10/08/2021 17:42, Guy Godfroy wrote:
> So you think that grouping all rites that are in full communion as the
> catholic church can lead to the expression of domination. I do not share
> this vision. Actually I think the opposite, since the current use of
> denomination=catholic (despite the wiki page advice) means implicitly
> roman_catholic. To me, that is not fair to the other rites.
Yes, would express domination. As the semantic and use of "catholic" is 
not used in practice for the denominations considered part of the "union 
catholic church". So we shouldn't express this by using it as a key in OSM.
It seems to me you are somehow stuck on the perception that 
tag:denomination=catholic is an equivalent, or at least used as such in 
OSM, for tag:denomination=roman_catholic. I think we don't have any 
means to verify this. It might be a valid conclusion for a local 
situation, but not accurate for global use. What we should keep in mind 
is that on a global scale, any mapper should be able to map Catholic 
premises, being it a muslim, a protestant, a buddhist, atheist or 
whatever religious background and knowledge.
True, as said before, the wiki describes somehow vague that more 
specific denominations are preferred, but doesn't  say that it should be 
used or misused in that way. The denominations, being considered as part 
of the union Catholic church or not (where union Catholic church is also 
not consistently used across the denominations, but at least listed as 
such in our wiki). So I would suggest making the description and the use 
of "catholic", as alternative for the more specific values, more 
specific. By explicitly saying "not to be considered as alternative for 
any of the catholic denominations" but as an option to tag those 
situations where it is not clear, either by global consensus, local 
preference of the religious community, or because the mapper lacks the 
detailed knowledge or history for the religion.

An alternative is to completely discourage it's use at all when the 
mapper is in doubt or lacks detailed knowledge. Since assigning it might 
exclude, or offend churches like the Evangelical Lutheran Church in 
America 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_in_America> 
and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada. 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_in_Canada> 
One should keep in mind that, if you allow me to cite wikipedia, "The 
Catholic Church <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church> 
considers only those in full communion with the Holy See in Rome as 
Catholics. While recognising the valid episcopates and Eucharist of the 
Eastern Orthodox Church 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church> in most cases, 
it does not consider Protestant denominations such as Lutheran ones to 
be genuine churches and so uses the term "ecclesial communities" to 
refer to them.". The Catholic Union church as you refer to it, by this 
practice is actually claiming the use of the semantic word "catholic" 
for it's own practices, thus trying to dominate based on historical 
grounds. The very same practice which has led to it's demise and 
creation of different Christian denominations.
I'm afraid by doing so with a new "catholic" subkey you are going to 
incite the same competition, not resolving the current misuse or better 
said, inaccuracy, express the same practice which historically has 
proven not to be acceptable. Acceptable as in recognition of other 
religions and denominations within those religions.

>
> Also, rites in full communion are accepting each other ; that means that
> a traveling Catholic looking for a place of worship can totally go to a
> catholic place with a different rite than they are used to, they won't
> lack anything spiritually. Spending the rest of their life to a
> different place with a different rite isn't morally wrong for any of the
> churches that are in full communion, this isn't apostasy.
>
> When a church isn't in full communion with the great catholic church,
> then they both acknowledge that they are not in full communion. And even
> is they may adopt term "catholic" as well, that won't be "catholic"
> alone, for example the Old Catholic.

True, but if I understood your intentions correctly, is not the issue 
you are trying to resolve here, neither is it increased by the current 
tag:denomination=catholic. The issue is inaccuracy or misuse of 
"catholic", both for those lacking detailed knowledge, those considering 
themselves "catholic" but not part of the Great Catholic Church or 
Catholic Union Church and of course those who do and have good arguments 
to claim the term. But for those we have, both in and outside of OSM, 
provided a consensus with more specific names.

Greetings,

Bert Araali

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