[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Couloir

Kevin Broderick ktb at kevinbroderick.com
Thu Feb 4 14:30:01 UTC 2021


Speaking as an American who wishes he got to spend more time in couloirs
and less in front of the computer, I agree with Phil and Pierrick.

I'd also note that having couloirs specifically mapped could be enormously
helpful for route-finding in ski mountaineering (not to mention SAR efforts
if someone is reported injured at the bottom of "Hanging Couloir" or such).
I doubt it would be likely to happen anytime soon in the areas I'm thinking
about—most of them barely have the road network mapped—but if we got there,
I can see a significant benefit.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 7:59 AM Philip Barnes <phil at trigpoint.me.uk> wrote:

> On Thu, 2021-02-04 at 12:22 +0000, pierrick pratter via Tagging wrote:
> >
> >
> > > With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in
> > > English
> >
> > The thing is that the English word "couloir" describe exactly this
> > topological features and nothing else compared to the French word
> > that can be applicable to different situation.
> > It also might be rarely used because there are not a lot of people
> > that climb these things, I'm sure that if you talk to English people
> > that do a lot of mountaineering, they would exactly know what it is.
>
> Speaking as a Brit who climbs mountains sometimes, I fully support the
> above. The term when I first saw the subject was obvious to me that it
> is about tagging in the mountains.
>
> English borrows many words from French in mountaineering and skiing.
> For example Piste (the French word for a track). In English it refers
> exclusively to a ski run.
> >
> > > What about "gully" instead.
> >
> Gully has too wide a meaning in English, and does not have the same
> precision of meaning as Couloir. Gully is more to do with drainage.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
>
>
> > I really doesn't whant to go in another description again, I made a
> > section dedicated on the proposal article with images to visually
> > describe the differences.
> > I understand that the word gully is applicable by it's general
> > definition but this is a very precise topological features in alpine
> > terrain. In those terrain we also have gullies but this word is not
> > general too and describe very narrow cracks in cliffs as wide as one
> > or two people, so this tag make the difference between what is
> > clearly a couloir and what is cleary a gully.
> >
> > It is important to make the difference because topological features
> > are used a lot to orientate oneself in those terrain, it is even used
> > by rescue team to find people and study the terrain for danger
> > exposition.
> >
> > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> >  On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 11:21 PM, Volker Schmidt <
> > voschix at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > From the photos on duck duck go, it seems that these couloirs are
> > > steep valleys with steep walls which become couloirs in winter.when
> > > they are full with snow.
> > >
> > > Apart from that it seems that in French "couloir" as geographic
> > > feature describes an avalanche channel (couloir d'avalanche).
> > > In the French term "couloir" used in German means something similar
> > > to the French original:
> > > " Ein Couloir (französisch für Korridor) ist eine von Felsen
> > > begrenzte und oft mit Schnee oder Eis gefüllte Rinne an einem
> > > Berghang oder in einer Bergwand.
> > > Couloirs sind steil und meist eng und aufgrund ihrer Struktur meist
> > > dem Stein- oder Eisschlag ausgesetzt." (Wiiipedia)
> > >
> > > The big photograph in Pierrick's post above is certainly not
> > > showing a French or German couloir.
> > > In German there is also the term Rinne (English: gulley), for
> > > something like a Couloir that does not imply snow.
> > >
> > > With this confusion of term, and the relative rarity of the term in
> > > English, I would suggest not to use it in OSM.
> > >
> > > What about "gully" instead.
> > >
> > > BTW the French term "couloir" in general is a corridor for people
> > > (in buildings) or materials (in the mountains)
> > >
> > >
> > > Virus-free. www.avast.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 21:33, Joseph Eisenberg <
> > > joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > The tag needs to have a clear definition which explains how it is
> > > > different than natural=gorge, natural=gully or especially
> > > > natural=valley
> > > >
> > > > -- Joseph Eisenberg
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:25 AM Walker Kosmidou-Bradley <
> > > > walker.t.bradley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > A couloir is a particular feature of mountain topography, not
> > > > > just a tight valley.  Unlike a valley, there is no floor, it’s
> > > > > a confined space often used for ascents or descents.
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 17:59, Volker Schmidt <voschix at gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > What makes a couloir different from a (steep) valley? Only
> > > > > > the steepness?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Volker
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 18:21, pierrick pratter via Tagging <
> > > > > > tagging at openstreetmap.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > Renewal of the natural=couloir tag :
> > > > > > > Proposed_features/couloir_2
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Definition : A narrow gully with a steep gradient in a
> > > > > > > mountainous terrain
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-- 
Kevin Broderick
ktb at kevinbroderick.com
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