[Tagging] Draft proposal for historic cemetery
Daniel Capilla
dcapillae at gmail.com
Thu Feb 11 17:38:08 UTC 2021
Hi, Joseph.
Thank for your comments.
I have used this tag to map (only two) cemeteries that are included in
protected heritage lists, cementeris whose historic significance is
quite clear. However, that is just my way of acting. The OSM approach is
more open, it does not depend on official recognition.
You can map a historic feature in OSM even if it is not officially
recognised as historic heritage by an official organization. The
"Key:historic" page on the wiki sets out factors to be taken into
account in order to consider something as historic in terms of OSM [1].
I understand that they are of general application, so they also apply to
historic cemeteries. I have indicated this in the draft in order to
clarify doubts in this respect.
From my experience, I think that almost all cemeteries considered as
"historic cemeteries" will have some kind of official recognition. But,
as I said, this requirement is not mandatory in OSM.
Regards,
Daniel
[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:historic
El 11/2/21 a las 18:01, Joseph Eisenberg escribió:
> Diego,
>
> The problem with this tag is that it is subjective. You have not
> provided any verifiable, objective definition which can be used to
> determine if a cemetery from 1850 should be tagged as historic or not.
>
> We don't map subjective information like restaurant ratings, and we
> don't map historical data which is no longer existing in the real
> world, like the site of an ancient battle which is now developed into
> a suburban residential estate.
>
> The features under historic=* should have something real and current
> which is mappable, and it should be possible to visit the location and
> confirm that the tags are correct or incorrect.
>
> Otherwise, enthusiastic mappers might add this tag to every churchyard
> and cemetery in their area which is older than 50 years, and that
> provides less information than start_date=* and is less verifiable.
>
> -- Joseph Eisenberg
>
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 2:33 AM Diego Cruz <ginkarasu at gmail.com
> <mailto:ginkarasu at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Dear Martin Koppenhoefer,
>
> When I said Baroque or Chopin, I was simply trying to put examples
> of reasons to consider a cemetery historic or not. Of course all
> the cemeteries you mention can have the tag historic=cemetery. If
> you want me to give you concrete examples instead, I think
> Recoleta Cemetery in Buenos Aires, Comillas Cemetery in Spain,
> Worms Jewish Cemetery in Germany or Père Lachaise Cemetery in
> Paris qualify for this tag, apart from those you mention. We can
> get lost in the details, but that doesn't mean that this tag isn't
> useful and applies to existing objects.
>
> Dear Paul Allen,
>
> I wouldn't put this tag to the first cemetery in a town myself,
> but local communities may think it fit to do so, because the
> concept of historic significance can be different according to the
> place. For example, I wouldn't use this tag much in my own area.
> Around here people used to be buried inside churches and the
> currently existing cemeteries are not older than 1850.
> All the military cemeteries you mention qualify for this tag in my
> opinion too. I don't see what's the problem there. However,
> contrary to what you say, if there is a series of
> Baroque/Merovingian/Native
> American/whatever-period-you-like-with-historic-significance tombs
> it can be considered a historic ensemble and the whole can be
> mapped as historic, apart from the individual tombs.
>
> Best regards
> Diego Cruz
>
> El jue., 11 feb. 2021 1:41, Daniel Capilla <dcapillae at gmail.com
> <mailto:dcapillae at gmail.com>> escribió:
>
> Hello to all.
>
> I also think it is important to map what is inside the
> cemetery, not just the cemetery itself (the site). If the
> proposal is approved, I plan to write an entry in my OSM diary
> explaining why I have decided to make this proposal. I visited
> a historic cemetery in my locality and was mapping some
> historic graves, cenotaphs, memorials, columbaria... There is
> a lot of local history in a historic cemetery.
>
> Many historic cemeteries are included in a list of authorised
> heritage registrers. Where I live, a medium-sized city in
> Spain, there are two historic cemeteries and both are
> registered by a competent heritage authority, one national and
> one regional. However, in OSM this requirement is not
> mandatory for mapping a historic feature, so I have left the
> question open and referred to what the wiki explains about it.
>
> Establishing the requirements for mapping a historic feature
> in OSM goes beyond this proposal (and beyond my
> possibilities). This proposal has a very limited scope in
> reality. I have modified the draft to make it clearer. Any
> suggestions for improvement are welcome.
>
> In a few days I hope to send the RFC. Thank you for your
> cooperation and comments.
>
> Regards,
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
> El 10/2/21 a las 23:50, Martin Koppenhoefer escribió:
>> Am Mi., 10. Feb. 2021 um 00:10 Uhr schrieb Diego Cruz
>> <ginkarasu at gmail.com <mailto:ginkarasu at gmail.com>>:
>>
>> Local users can easily verify if a cemetery is historic
>> or not. This is partly subjective, but you need to trust
>> local users' common sense, as in any other tag.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Is there a series of Baroque tombs? It's historic.
>>
>>
>>
>> so it is about age? When you say "baroque", do you mean from
>> the 17th/18th century, or would late 18th, 19th and 20th
>> century "baroque" also qualify? The monumental cemetery of
>> Verano (Rome) would probably qualify, although it was opened
>> only in 1812 (while the baroque period ended around 1740) and
>> most (?) of it is from the 20th century:
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Cimitero_del_Verano
>> <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Cimitero_del_Verano>
>> (on the other hand, maybe this does not qualify, because
>> there is also a very old christian place of worship, Saint
>> Lawrence outside the Walls, from the 4th century AD, which is
>> even a Papal Basilica, and the proposal says: "Its scope of
>> application is limited to cemeteries in the sense in which
>> they are understood in OpenStreetMap: «places usually
>> independent of place of worship» and «not close to a place of
>> worship»"?)
>>
>> I guess even younger cemeteries would qualify to be
>> "historic", for example world war I cemeteries like
>> Douaumont? https://www.verdun-douaumont.com/en/
>> <https://www.verdun-douaumont.com/en/>
>> This seems an easy case, because it is also a kind of
>> historic=monument for the Verdun battle.
>>
>> Also this is probably a no-brainer, although people are now
>> living there (it is much older than baroque):
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_the_Dead_(Cairo)
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_the_Dead_(Cairo)>
>>
>> Generally, I see a lot of overlap with archaeological site
>> for many historic burial places. All of them which are older
>> than a few hundred years will probably also qualify for
>> archaelogical site, and there are also already site types
>> established for it:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:site_type
>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:site_type> in
>> particular: necropolis
>>
>> Would the Gizeh site qualify for historic=cemetery? A
>> massgrave from the Bosnian war?
>>
>> Is it the last remaining Jewish cemetery of a region?
>> It's historic.
>>
>>
>>
>> I find it a bit difficult to make a qualitative assessment
>> based on how rare something is. If locally there are many old
>> jewish cemeteries, they would not qualify, but if there is
>> only one left, it would? I am not very familiar with jewish
>> tradition but I thought to remember that their deads rest
>> "forever" (or until salvation by the Messiah) in their burial
>> places, so the cemetery would remain forever a cemetery, even
>> if there are no new burials, not?
>>
>> Is Chopin buried there? It's historic.
>>
>>
>>
>> burial places of famous people are likely noteworthy, but I
>> am not sure the whole cemetery becomes historic because
>> Chopin is buried there - or Jim Morrison. (on a sidenote, no
>> doubt that Père Lachaise is a historic cemetery).
>>
>> Not that I could not agree that many cemeteries, or even
>> most, according to the area you look at, are of historic
>> value. It's almost implicit, especially for every cemetery
>> older than a few decades and of significant size. Everybody
>> dies, also famous people, and rich people who can afford to
>> engage notable artists for the funeral monument, so it seems
>> logical that any cemetery in a bigger city will have some
>> famous people buried there.
>>
>> My recommendation would be to focus on mapping the things
>> that make the cemetery "historic", both in terms of
>> components (tombs etc.) but also regarding the attributes of
>> the whole site. E.g. for the age, when it is known, I would
>> recommend to add explicit reference to the start_date, it is
>> a datum that already tells more than any historic=yes or
>> cemetery qualifiers. If it is unknown, you could still add a
>> rough timespan. Additionally to a start date, it would be
>> interesting to have the "main period", because it may well be
>> the case that the cemetery was used for hundreds or even
>> thousands of years, but most of the current tombs are from a
>> much later time.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Martin
>>
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