[Tagging] Proposed feature - Voting - electricity
lrichert at posteo.de
Sat Jan 2 14:47:35 UTC 2021
On 02/01/2021 14:31, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:
> Jan 1, 2021, 11:25 by lrichert at posteo.de:
> Ah I replied on the wiki, but I'll do so here to with some more
> On 01/01/2021 08:34, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>> I still have 3 major concerns with this proposal.
>> 1) I share the concerns of Mateusz Konieczny that a tag like "
>> electricity:grid:origin=hydro" is not verifiable, it's just
>> advertising. I don't think this is something we should try to map
>> in OpenStreetMap, because we try to avoid adding tags which are
>> advertising claims which cannot be confirmed to be true or false.
> The wiki explicitly mentions financial means and guarantees of
> origin are financial products and physics obviously dictates that
> electrons are not distinguishable particles.
> I have no trouble with tagging presence of advertised claims of
> guarantees of origin.
> But I want to make clear that we are tagging advertised claims, not
> guarantees of origin
> that require financial/legal analysis rather than on the ground survey.
> However, in OSM we also map organic farm shops and opening hours
> advertising among a host of other features that are indicated by
> signage. These are also not verifiable by a mapper
> Opening hours are fully verifiable by mapper. Unsigned ones can be
> obtained by asking
> employees, and even in absurd cases of intentionally misleading info
> you can
> verify when something is open by checking it sufficiently often.
Organic-ness however is not verifiable for the mapper - it is just as
much an advertising as the origin of electricity in a grid. I've also
known quite a few shops where the stated opening hours differed
considerably from those actually kept and can vary considerably.
> In cases of guarantees of origin mapper can verify advertised claims,
> but checking
> actually signed contract requires legal analysis and in my opinion is
> utterly unsuitable
> for OpenStreetMap.
Nowehere is the tag defined as mapping signed contracts. The definition
explicitly states that if there is a*sign *advertising the origin of the
electricity coming from the grid, then this is the tag to use. Thus, the
tag maps what is indicated on a sign at the feature - this does not
imply any knowledge of the state of actual contracts.
> I a also dubious about usefulness of mapping this in OSM and I am not
> going to do that,
> but if someone wants to map kind of advertisements, I have no trouble
> with that.
> If a sign clearly indicates 'renewable energy' then it should be
> possible for it to be tagged.
> +1 - but electricity:grid:origin is in my opinion extremely poor tag
> for that, I would be fine
> with electricity:advertised_origin
The only disagreement here seems to be the words used in the tag - not
the actual definition of it. To be consistent with the tagging scheme,
the tag would have to be electricity:grid:advertised_origin. This is
quite a hefty tag at 34 characters. The definition is clear, I don't see
why every nuance of a tag defintion must be explicitly indicated in the
tag especially as many editors don't even show the direct tag name.
> If you personally don't believe this makes any difference, then
> simply don't use these tags to filter, but please do allow others
> to make that choice.
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> Tagging at openstreetmap.org
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