[talk-au] Practicality of mapping high-speed motor-traffic routes as cycle routes

[Warin]

I have bicycled on the M2. I much prefer it the the alternative that has 
a lot of up and down, dangerous cross streets where some drivers assume 
right of way over bicycles and a less direct route. There are people who 
commute to and from work on it, if there were a convenient safer route 
they would use that instead.


On 13/4/20 8:01 pm, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> I think it's a fair argument to say it's not an actual route (but 
> still designated bicycle infrastructure since it's signposted), I can 
> see arguments both ways.
>
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 19:27, Dongchen Yue <yuedongchenyy at gmail.com 
> <mailto:yuedongchenyy at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     It’s certainly true that some people rely on motorway routes (I
>     agree that the solution for family-friendly routes would be a
>     different renderer, until conditions change in Australia).
>     However, regarding the bike symbol on the M2 on the Mapillary
>     example, it’s designed to be a sign of caution instead of a route
>     guide
>     (https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/business-industry/partners-and-suppliers/lgr/cycling-aspects-of-austroads-guides.pdf).
>

The document is 177 pages long... which page?


Some bicycle signs are to caution motor vehicle operators as to the 
presence of bicycles, not to caution the bicycle rider.

>
>>     Am 13.04.2020 um 7:21 PM schrieb Andrew Harvey
>>     <andrew.harvey4 at gmail.com <mailto:andrew.harvey4 at gmail.com>>:
>>
>>     Example of a dedicated bicycle crossing on a motorway entry ramp
>>     on the M2 in Sydney
>>     https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/3HCnt9rSnC2Z9OLn0GSslA and on
>>     the M7 in Sydney
>>     https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/JGrFtWbs5DYbMywYpVetoA.
>>
>>     The M7 Shared Path is is a completely different thing, it's a
>>     shared path and off road, but as you can see above on the M7
>>     motorway itself there is clearly dedicated bicycle signage and
>>     infrastructure.
>>
>>     Who says it's not recommended to cycle on the motorway? I've
>>     never seen a sign to say this. Whether it's common or not is
>>     irrelevant we mostly map the infrastructure on the ground not the
>>     traffic level of the road.
>>
>>     On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 19:11, Dongchen Yue
>>     <yuedongchenyy at gmail.com <mailto:yuedongchenyy at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         The most noticeable example in Sydney would be the M7 Shared
>>         Path (https://www.westlinkm7.com.au/about/shared-path), which
>>         is a ~40km uninterrupted bi-directional path alongside the M7
>>         Motorway with normally (though obviously not currently) very
>>         high usage for recreational cycling. However, although
>>         cycling on the motorway shoulders is neither recommended nor
>>         common, it’s been mapped on OSM as the cycle route „M7s"
>>         (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.83065/150.85767&layers=C)
>>         along with the „M7 Cycleway“ route.
>>
>>>         Am 13.04.2020 um 6:52 PM schrieb Ewen Hill
>>>         <ewen.hill at gmail.com <mailto:ewen.hill at gmail.com>>:
>>>
>>>         Hi Dongchen,
>>>            Can you provide a couple of examples please so we can
>>>         review and discuss them. There may be good reasons (the red
>>>         carpet Gardiners Creek cycle path in Melbourne hangs under
>>>         the freeway might appear incorrect but is not).
>>>
>>>          Ewen
>>>
>>>         On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 18:20, Dongchen Yue
>>>         <yuedongchenyy at gmail.com <mailto:yuedongchenyy at gmail.com>>
>>>         wrote:
>>>
>>>             Hi all,
>>>
>>>             I’ve noticed many motorway shoulders in Australia
>>>             (especially in Sydney) being mapped as cycle routes on
>>>             OSM. Although this seems to be a common approach for
>>>             motorways/other high-speed roads in Australia of which
>>>             cycling is allowed on, I can hardly imagine it to be of
>>>             any practical use (i.e. providing convenient and safe
>>>             connections for people cycling).
>>>
>>>             Foremostly, this mapping approach defies the general
>>>             purpose of cycle routes (both from an engineering
>>>             perspective and the official OSM Wiki), that is, guiding
>>>             people onto safe & convenient ways. Although cycling on
>>>             most motorway shoulders in Australia is technically
>>>             permitted and commonly done by the very few “strong and
>>>             fearless” people (only ~1%, as indicated in past
>>>             transport research), it’s both subjectively and
>>>             statically quite unsafe, which gives no use to most
>>>             people when rendered on tiles such as OpenCycleMap.
>>>
>>>             Also, these mapped motorway/high-speed road routes
>>>             aren’t officially endorsed routes whatsoever, and are
>>>             always referred to as separate pieces of infrastructure
>>>             (e.g. “… cycleway”) by cycle-lobbying groups.
>>>             Afterall, these “routes” probably shouldn’t be mapped at
>>>             all, since they aren’t much use to most people; tagging
>>>             them with ‘cycling’: ‘designated’ and ‘cycleway’:
>>>             ‘shoulder’ would be sufficient enough. What do you think
>>>             of this solution?
>>>
>>>             Thanks in advance,
>>>             Dongchen Yue
>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>             Talk-au mailing list
>>>             Talk-au at openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
>>>             https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         -- 
>>>         Warm Regards
>>>
>>>         Ewen Hill
>>>         Internet Development Australia
>>

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