[talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths

Matthew Seale mseale1 at iinet.net.au
Mon Oct 4 06:21:19 UTC 2021


These are the results of some Mapilliary browsing cycleways/shared paths
adjacent to primary roads in and around Greater Dandenong where Sebastian /
HighRouleur  removed bicycle access (converted to footpath or bicycle=no).
Each of these has visible shared cycling path signs on Mapilliary.



I entered changeset comments earlier on Hallam Road way 31659577 below
after a tag change yesterday.

I have not put all of these against the remainder of his changesets.



Regards

Matthew



Hallam Road from Pound Rd to Ormond Rd

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/736809442/history

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=312660870443397

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=895599964330562

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=1410241922644656

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=205753421362506

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=508544383674853



https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/31659577/history (already commented on
changeset 11203682)

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=144954007603964

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=2031215400361053

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=851076202144993

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=497400694795407

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=566530107645541

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=1410241922644656





Cranbourne Rd from Centre Rd to Greaves Rd

Southbound

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/43974586/history

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=1125882161173090

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=4044452288977189 (shared path signage
just visible)



Greaves Rd from The Avenue to Cranbourne Road

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/51792707/history

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=957912521623904

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=734196640529461

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=732457320763410



Ernst Wanke Rd from Parkhill Drive to Narre Warren Rd North

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/74268817/history

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=585890135726372

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=1631883537013186



Narre Warrern North Rd from Monash Freeway to Princes Hwy southbound

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/114377605/history

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=2655642424738245

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=201983328212269

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=609180500479076 (maybe – blurred/angled
view of shared path sign)



Thompsons Road – Merinda Park railway bridge LXRP

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/659812851/history

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/659812850/history

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/320636187/history

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/687251657/history

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/687251655/history



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLHIolV0d08 (LXRP Youtube overview from the
OMS source tag on several of those cyclepaths)

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=314224830110424

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=297352711968846

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=504431641001656

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=198251272127970



Thomspons Rd from South Gippsland Hwy to Narre Warren Rd

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/839517705/history

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=490841682271128

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=500638321126014



Hammond Rd from Dandenong Bypass to Webster St

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/807140065/history

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=196724275601939

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=2871075936555149

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=146143874152929

On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 7:20 PM Sebastian Azagra Flores via Talk-au <
talk-au at openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> I don’t think we should blame routing software, if there is fundamental
> issue in the data set it uses to undertake the routing.
> In my experience, where paths are correctly tagged, the routing software
> will not venture onto paths where the permissions do not permit it. For the
> majority of instances, there aren’t any issues.
>
> In some instances, the footpaths are set to bicycle=yes which is in
> correct. I have ventured out on the bike to verify that there was a sign to
> allow bicycles but to no avail.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3 Oct 2021, at 6:07 pm, osm.talk-au at thorsten.engler.id.au wrote:
>
> This really is all already covered under:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#Verifiability
>
> and
>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#Don.27t_map_for_the_render
> er
>
> (which should also apply to "don't map for the [broken] router").
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: forster at ozonline.com.au <forster at ozonline.com.au>
> Sent: Sunday, 3 October 2021 16:34
> To: Kim Oldfield <osm at oldfield.wattle.id.au>; Kim Oldfield via Talk-au
> <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] Cycling on Victorian paths
>
> Hi all
>
> I am thinking that unless we pay a lawyer and get a legal opinion we will
> never be sure what the law is.
>
> Given that uncertainty we have two principles to choose from, I'll call
> them
> the "precautionary principle" and the "somebody else's problem" principle.
> (Maybe better called the ground truth principle.)
>
> I hope this does not misrepresent anybody's position but I think Sebastian
> Azagra would say that we have a moral responsibility to protect people from
> the risk of getting a large fine.
>
> I and others have argued that we OSM should stop at recording what is on
> the
> ground and leave the difficult legal interpretation to map renderers.
>
> Not sure how we arrive at a resolution.
>
> Tony
>
> On 3/10/21 9:13 am, Sebastian Azagra via Talk-au wrote:
>
> In my view, some of the data in OSM is incorrect as a footpath will
> some times have permission bicycle=yes which is incorrect. The
> majority of the time allowed access will have bicycle=unspecified
> (not defined)which I think is fine.
> The issue is that cycling software, apps and gps units used by
> cyclist takes information from OSM and then creates a route based
> on the permission assigned to the road/path in OSM.
>
>
> In Victoria cycling is not allowed on most footpaths (for most adults).
> The is defined in the wiki at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access_restri
> ctions#Australia and more formally in OSM at
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2316741
>
> As far as I'm concerned, routing software should be using these as
> part of the decision on when to route bikes down footpaths. Any
> software which ignores these should be have a bug report logged. We
> should not tag all footpaths with bicycle=no just for software which
> doesn't understand the defaults already configured in OSM.
>
> It looks like Thosten Engler[*] has just said the same thing.
>
> [*] Is that the name of the person using
> osm.talk-au at thorsten.engler.id.au? You don't appear to have used a
> name in your email so I'm guessing based on your email domain, but as
> domains often get used by multiple people there is no guarantee that
> I'm right.
>
> Regards,
> Kim
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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