[OSM-talk-be] Tagging a restaurant that offers electricity to customers

Thu Sep 30 10:54:54 UTC 2021

Hi Pieter,

In your first point, I understand. It is related to the endless discussion
of whether a shop should have an address if it's in an addressed building
and similar discussions. I'm all for models that make it easy to map and
puts a little more work on the data user. However, that has its limits.
Think of mapping roads : at some point, we'll start to map the road area
(we already kind of do sometimes), and then some of the data we now map on
the ways could move to the areas. I know from experience with polygon based
road closure data, that that would be a complete disaster for data users.

Similar for camper sites : there isn't always a straightforward relation
between the various infrastructure of the site and the outline of the site.
Yes, you can relatively easily find the nearest toilet from a camper site.
But often a mapper will add the availability of the toilet to the outline.
Does the next mapper who adds the toilet as a node now have to know they
need to delete the toilet tag?

Anyway, it's a complicated issue and I understand either position here.

Best,
Joost

Op wo 29 sep. 2021 14:17 schreef Pieter Vander Vennet <pietervdvn at posteo.net
>:

> Hi Joost,
>
> > I'd say it is useful to add service:bicycle:charging directly to
> objects, as it makes it easy to find "bicycle friendly objects". Having
> this as "yes" doesn't mean you can't add the actual charging location as a
> separate node as well (similar to how a camper site can have simultaneously
> both the attribute for a dump station as well as a node).
>
> I kindoff disagree with this 'double tagging', as it is not maintainable
> in the long run. To stick with campersites, should we also tag that there
> is a playground, a shop, a toilet, ... on the campersite outline? What if
> there is a public playground just around the corner? IMHO it is up to the
> data consumer to check which points are nearby and to figure out what a
> 'bicycle friendly object' is.
>
> > I wonder if the availability of a power plug indoor is enough to
> conclude you can charge your bike battery there. If I were to ask, I'd ask
> "is it OK to charge my phone" or "is it OK to charge my bike battery" - and
> I wouldn't assume the answer to the second question to be yes just because
> the first is yes.
>
> Good point, didn't think of that. Some cafés/pubs/...  have electrical
> plugs exposed in their dining areas which you can just use, I was in the
> first place thinking about mapping these as they are objectively visible.
>
> > A related thought is that if there's an outdoor plug, you could also use
> it to slowly slowly charge your electric car. This only makes sense at
> hotels/B&Bs I guess, because I don't think you'd get meaningful charge
> during a coffee break.
> Which is why this outdoor plug should be mapped as a separate point, with
> the full support of adding socket types, power outputs and accessibility
> for various vehicles.
>
> > Do we really care if people can charge their phone though?
>
> I do, and the persons who paid me to develop the theme care even more ;)
> I've even seen cafés which have a stand of battery packs to charge your
> phone - but that is a paid service though.
>
> > Do we really want to map the answer to a question that could be answered
> by a random employee? The next one might answer differently. I wonder if we
> might be better off saying : hey, if you want to explicitly offer power
> plugs to customers, put a sticker on the door or on the plug, and then we
> can map that.
>
> Valid point - such a sticker would indeed objectify it.
>
> > Are there any cafes that actually actively offer power plugs indoor? If
> not, I'd just leave it be. The only question I'd ask then is "Does this
> place offer a dedicated place to charge bicycles?" and add
> service:bicycle:charging=yes to the object if that's the case.
>
> Yes, there are - for example coffee shops in trainstations typically offer
> those for commuters who want to work a bit on their laptop while waiting
> for their train. These outlets are sometimes even integrated in the
> furniture and tables; in some cases even offering an USB-outlet too.
>
>
> Met vriendelijke groeten,
> Pieter Vander Vennet
>
> On 29.09.21 09:58, joost schouppe wrote:
>
> Hi Pieter,
>
> I'd say it is useful to add service:bicycle:charging directly to objects,
> as it makes it easy to find "bicycle friendly objects". Having this as
> "yes" doesn't mean you can't add the actual charging location as a separate
> node as well (similar to how a camper site can have simultaneously both the
> attribute for a dump station as well as a node).
>
> I wonder if the availability of a power plug indoor is enough to conclude
> you can charge your bike battery there. If I were to ask, I'd ask "is it OK
> to charge my phone" or "is it OK to charge my bike battery" - and I
> wouldn't assume the answer to the second question to be yes just because
> the first is yes.
>
> A related thought is that if there's an outdoor plug, you could also use
> it to slowly slowly charge your electric car. This only makes sense at
> hotels/B&Bs I guess, because I don't think you'd get meaningful charge
> during a coffee break.
>
> Do we really care if people can charge their phone though? Do we really
> want to map the answer to a question that could be answered by a random
> employee? The next one might answer differently. I wonder if we might be
> better off saying : hey, if you want to explicitly offer power plugs to
> customers, put a sticker on the door or on the plug, and then we can map
> that.
>
> Are there any cafes that actually actively offer power plugs indoor? If
> not, I'd just leave it be. The only question I'd ask then is "Does this
> place offer a dedicated place to charge bicycles?" and add
> service:bicycle:charging=yes to the object if that's the case.
>
> Just my random thoughts on the subject though :)
>
> Joost
>
> Op di 28 sep. 2021 21:29 schreef Pieter Vander Vennet <
> pietervdvn at posteo.net>:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I'm trying to amend the charging-stations/restaurants theme on
>> mapcomplete and want to add wether a restaurant/pub/cafe/... offers
>> access to electricity (e.g. to take the battery of your electrical bike
>> inside to charge it, or to charge your phone).
>>
>> However, I'm a bit conflicted on which tagging to use. I'm thinking in
>> the direction of `service:electricity=yes|customers|no|ask_staff`.
>> `service:bicycle:charging` would be fitting too, however, access to
>> electricity is broader then just charging bicycles and I don't think you
>> can take you bicycle inside of most restaurants.
>>
>> Note that charging stations (e.g. a plug provided at the bicycle
>> parking) should be mapped as a separate point with
>> `amenity=charging_station` (eventually with `access=customers`).
>>
>> Anyone have an opinion on this?
>>
>> --
>> Met vriendelijke groeten,
>> Pieter Vander Vennet
>>
>>
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