[Talk-ca] What do I poutine the name tag of a road with a suffix?

Thu Dec 15 23:39:37 UTC 2022

OSM tags and street signage usually don’ t match. Many town use Rd and Blvd and such on their signage. Yet this is not what we put in OSM for many good reasons. You add nothing and repeat old arguments that I don’t buy into.

Here is a small extract from the database you link to. Street name: 24, Street type: ST, Street Quad: SE
You agree that the ST should be Steet in OSM yet you get hung up on not using Southeast for SE. Our policy is to avoid abbreviations and there is no reason to treat TYPE and QUAD differently, they are both a characterization fo the street name, which is “24”

Could it be that this issue keeps coming back it because some people insist on doing it wrong, so it keeps coming back because it is never fixed.

Cheers.

ADDRESS
STREET_NAME
STREET_TYPE
STREET_QUAD
HOUSE_NUMBER
HOUSE_ALPHA
ADDRESS_TYPE
longitude
latitude
location
POINT
9895 24 ST SE
24
ST
SE
9895
Parcel
-114.00184767519124
50.9650303052608
(50.9650303052608°, -114.00184767519124°)
(50.9650303052608°, -114.00184767519124°)
9892 18 ST SE
18
ST
SE
9892
Parcel
-114.01250135847407
50.965030666755766
(50.965030666755766°, -114.01250135847407°)
(50.965030666755766°, -114.01250135847407°)
9891 18 ST SE

Cheers.

> On Dec 15, 2022, at 6:12 PM, Ian Bruseker <ian.bruseker at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> This is kinda interesting, seeing all you people have a big long discussion about how to map where I live.  If you want me to go out my door and take a picture of a street sign, I'd be happy to.  Street signs have NW, NE, whatever on them, not the whole word, if they have that at all.  Small suburban named roads don't generally seem to, I would think because once you got that deep into a neighbourhood, you already know you're in a given quadrant so no point wasting ink to keep telling you that on the sign.  Someone earlier said something along the lines of "according to a friend of a friend who lives in Calgary..."  Well, I do live here.  Ask your questions about what this city does.
> 
> As for who names streets, I'd say the City of Calgary seems pretty confident that's their job.  "The Calgary Planning Commission and Council approve street names."  From https://www.calgary.ca/development/addressing.html   
> 
> For how the city stores this data in a database, check this out:  
> 
> https://data.calgary.ca/Base-Maps/Parcel-Address-Data-Lens/r3gn-538m  
> 
> You'll see both the "address" and "street_quad" fields just have a two letter abbreviation in them.  I'm not saying it's the right way to do it, I am a computer nerd and understand that good data is important, but that's how we roll in Calgary.  If I asked someone "write down your address" and they wrote down 123 4 St NE, that'd make all the sense in the world to me.  Yes, out loud I would say "northeast", but I'd never write it that way or expect to see it on a sign that way.  That's way too much work/writing.
> 
> As for history, why did we Calgarians map it this way?  I'd like to think I'm part of that history, and we did it based on the old ethos of "map what you see on the ground", not some perfect form of data science.
> 
> Anyway, like I said, if I can help anyone understand Calgary or Alberta better, from the point of view of just a regular user of maps and occasional mapper of things I see on the ground, not a pro cartologist, happy to tell you what I can.
> 
> Ian
> 
> 
> On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 at 13:06, Kevin Farrugia <kevinfarrugia at gmail.com <mailto:kevinfarrugia at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Not necessarily, in Ontario it's the municipalities that approve street names and creates addresses (developers propose the street name).  Not sure how it works in Alberta, but I know Ontario gets the names from the municipalities and then the Feds get it from the province (i.e. local street dataset --> Ontario Road Network --> National Road Network).  In Ontario the province doesn't really have any say since it's left up to the municipal street naming committee.  Again, check with the Alberta situation, but I can't see them wanting to get into street naming...
>> 
>> -Kevin
>> 
>>  <mailto:kevinfarrugia at gmail.com>
>> 
>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 2:36 PM Pierre Béland via Talk-ca <talk-ca at openstreetmap.org <mailto:talk-ca at openstreetmap.org>> wrote:
>>> Iain,
>>> 
>>> Ce sont les provinces et territoires qui sont responsables d'établir les noms officiels dans leur juridiction et d'accepter les propositions des municipalités
>>> 
>>> Le répertoire des données fédérales contient les données fournies par chaque province et territoire. Ce répeertoire est publié avec une licence de données ouvertes compatible avec OSM.  Lors de l'ajout d'un nom de rue, il est toujours possible d'indiquer 
>>> source = NRN Canada / Alberta.
>>> 
>>> Les autres noms de lieux (ie.  ville, lac, etc) sont disponibles via la deuxième source de données nationale
>>> https://toponymes.rncan.gc.ca/search-place-names/search 
>>> 
>>> Par exemple, si je recherche sur ce site fédéral [Lesser Slave Lake] : j'obtiens le polygone du lac et on y indique que la source est [Alberta-Ministry of Culture and Status of Women], donc le gouvernement d'Alberta.
>>>  
>>> Pierre 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Le jeudi 15 décembre 2022 à 14 h 05 min 44 s UTC−5, Iain Ingram <iain at monkeyface.ca <mailto:iain at monkeyface.ca>> a écrit :
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Thank you Pierre. 
>>> 
>>> As mention in this article it points back to Alberta database. My understanding is we go federal as you provided. 
>>> 
>>> Iain
>>> 
>>>> On Dec 15, 2022, at 12:01, Pierre Béland <pierzenh at yahoo.fr <mailto:pierzenh at yahoo.fr>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> voir https://www.alberta.ca/alberta-geographical-names-program.aspx
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> Pierre 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Le jeudi 15 décembre 2022 à 12 h 32 min 14 s UTC−5, iain at monkeyface.ca <mailto:iain at monkeyface.ca> <iain at monkeyface.ca <mailto:iain at monkeyface.ca>> a écrit :
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Martin,
>>>> 
>>>> I asked for the gazette article that was never provided. I am not disagreeing with abbreviation. I am asking what source we use as the federal provincial and municipal do no match. I assume you know this reading the sources I provided you.
>>>> 
>>>> The correct answer could have been we use federal sources only not provincial or municipal. And that is a perfectly fine answer. I expect the wiki to reflect this. I would also expect it to be clear on items we don’t have federal documents for and how those names should be handled.
>>>> 
>>>>> On Dec 15, 2022, at 9:38 AM, Martin Chalifoux <martin.chalifoux at icloud.com <mailto:martin.chalifoux at icloud.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> If this helps. And I think Pierre in his post provided links to databases that provide non-abbreviated names for Alberta.
>>>> 
>>>> abbreviation | əˌbriːvɪˈeɪʃn  | 
>>>> noun 
>>>> a shortened form of a word or phrase: the chemical symbol Ag is an abbreviation of the Latin word for silver, argentum | use simple words and no abbreviations. 
>>>> • [mass noun] the process of abbreviating something: nursing records must be written without abbreviation. 
>>>> ORIGIN 
>>>> late Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French abreviation, from ecclesiastical Latin abbreviatio(n-), from the verb abbreviare (see abbreviate <>).
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> From Pierre B’eland Post:
>>>> ____________________
>>>> Permettez-moi de revenir sur le sujet des répertoires de données officielles au Canada. J'ai pris le temps de télécharger les données pour l'Alberta et j'y constate que les noms sont écrits sans abbréviation ie. South-East, South-West et non SE, SW.
>>>> (voir liens NRN plus bas).
>>>> 
>>>> Les données officielles sont collectées par les provinces et territoires. Le gouvernement fédéral y ajoute de données fédérales telles que Pacs nationaux.  
>>>> 
>>>> La Commission de toponymie du Canada - Geographical Names Board of Canada gère ces données. Cette Commission comprend des représentants des provinces et territoires et ministères fédéraux.
>>>> https://www.rncan.gc.ca/sciences-de-la-terre/geographie/commission-de-toponymie-du-canada/11085
>>>> https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/earth-sciences/geography/geographical-names-board-canada/11084
>>>>  
>>>> De là des répertoires sont disponibles notamment sur le site des données ouvertes du Canada.
>>>> Voici deux grands répertoires de données vectorielles qui nous intéressent
>>>> 
>>>> 1.  Noms de lieux - Toponymes du Canada  - Geographical names in Canada
>>>> FR https://www.rncan.gc.ca/cartes-outils-et-publications/cartes/toponymes-canada/10804
>>>> EN https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/maps-tools-and-publications/maps/geographical-names-canada/10786
>>>> 
>>>> 2. Réseau routier national - National Road Network (NRN)
>>>> FR https://www.statcan.gc.ca/fr/consultation/2019/rrn
>>>> EN https://www.statcan.gc.ca/en/consultation/2019/nrn
>>>> 
>>>> 
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