[Talk-GB] [Talk-gb-london] New OSM London Meetup - Invite

SK53 sk53.osm at gmail.com
Mon Aug 21 18:42:10 UTC 2017


My normal practice is to map the estate as a separate landuse area and name
that. One example I've done fairly recently in this way
<https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/217343585> is the Whittington Estate,
Highgate.

My view is that named estates vary in size & local perception too much for
a single place=* usage. Most London ones will be perceived to be in a
particular suburb (even quite large ones) so I don't think the suburb tag
is likely to be appropriate. They are usually very well delineated, both on
the ground and in terms of architecture. Several distinct estates may also
form a coherent neighbourhood.

Recent examples I've looked at (largely inspired by John Boughton who blogs
<https://municipaldreams.wordpress.com/> & tweets as Muncipal Dreams):


   - Ossulton Estate (Somertown): name attached to buildings.
   - Old Oak Estate (Acton/Hammersmith): not mapped. There are two early
   20C estates either side of Du Cane road.
   - Progress Estate (Eltham): added as an area
   <https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/510540881>.
   - New Addington (LB of Croydon, but a place in its own right). John
   Gringrod's new book Outskirts, about the Green Belt, features this estate
   extensively. He grew up there.
   - A couple of Islington estates (perhaps Andover) which were anonymised
   in a 1970s book. I don't have the reference to hand.

Delineating the estates is very useful for a number of reasons associated
with the study of these areas: history, architecture, urban planning,
sociology etc. Detailed mapping may be of direct assistance for residents
associations (the sort of thing Tom has done in the past). Of course the
ideal would be that mapping involved people who live on the estates. Plenty
of the modern academic literature comes from people who grew up on council
estates.

I would recommend seeing what has been written about these places as a way
of informing ones mapping. There's often surprisingly detailed information:
its not unusual for some older people living on these estates to have known
them all their lives. Or their children return frequently: Ian Waites accounts
and photos
<https://municipaldreams.wordpress.com/2017/07/18/middlefield_a_postwar_council_estate_in_time/>
of the Middlefield Estate in Gainsborough show what can be done.

Other writers worth reading for perspectives relevant to mapping stuff on
OSM include: Lynsey Hanley ("Estates"), Owen Hatherley (mainly in articles
and all over the place), Chris Matthews (Nottingham & other East Midland
estates), Lisa Mckenzie (who espouses "narrative from within"). These are
all in one way or other left-wing.

Regards,


Jerry

On 21 August 2017 at 16:49, Tom Chance <tom at acrewoods.net> wrote:

> Hi Nicolas,
>
> I think that could be really valuable. One of the first mapping parties I
> attended was one I helped Harry organise, to map north Peckham when the
> whole area was a blank space on the map, and in particular to add more
> detail for roads and footpaths through estates that were usually just shown
> as gaps in other maps. I also helped map the trees on the Heygate Estate
> before demolition started, which is great to have as an archive of what was
> there before the developers reneged on promises and cut some of the best
> specimens down.
>
> Just a few points/questions...
>
> 1. Presumably the data is coming from people's local knowledge, so there
> aren't any copyright issues? What's the underlying map people are adding
> them to - OSM? Google maps? That might create a copyright issue. I know
> there are maps of London council estates knocking around that are based on
> Ordnance Survey data.
>
> 2. Someone would then need to go through, one by one, and check whether
> the estate's name is already in the database before adding the missing
> names. There are already lots in OSM, so it would be good to avoid adding
> duplicates.
>
> 3. I'm not sure we've ever settled on the right place= value for estates.
> It's some years since I was really actively mapping - these days I just
> maintain my immediate area. But would it be place=neighbourhood,
> place=locality, place=estate, something else?
>
> 4. Some estates are entered as nodes, others as areas, and some areas are
> landuse=residential while others are just given the estate name. Again,
> this might be a good opportunity to get a consistent approach?
>
> Best wishes,
> Tom
>
>
> *Tom Chance*
>
> *Housing policy and programmes consultant*
>
> *m: 07866 447 075*
> *w: *http://tomchance.org
>
> On 17 August 2017 at 12:18, Nicolas Fonty <fonty.nicolas at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Bjoern
>>
>> Not yet in OSM.  For the moment we are just locating their approximative
>> centre with coordinates + their name.
>> And that would be interesting to then use this data to export it to OSM.
>> What do you think ?
>>
>> On 17 August 2017 at 11:34, Bjoern Hassler <bjohas+mw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Nicolas,
>>>
>>> When you say you are mapping estates, do you mapping them into OSM?
>>>
>>> Do you use the task manager?
>>> Bjoern
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 17 Aug 2017 10:06, "Nicolas Fonty" <fonty.nicolas at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi !
>>> Following up the idea on "Missing map London", I remember that someone
>>> mentioned the Housing Estates. I would be interested to work on that issue
>>> if others want too.
>>> I am participating this week to a workshop at the ICA where we map
>>> London estates under regeneration. We have 250 at the moment. There will be
>>> an exhibition this week-end if you are interested.
>>>
>>> Best summer wishes !
>>> nicolas
>>>
>>> On 9 May 2017 at 09:15, Bjoern Hassler <bjohas+mw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Stuart, hi Derek, hi all,
>>>>
>>>> Sure, a marathon and field mapping would be great. And it can wait
>>>> until after the election, for sure!
>>>>
>>>> Regarding NAPTAN, see here http://bjohas.de/wiki/Map
>>>> s/Kings_Cross/Comparison. While this is only kings cross, I've found
>>>> the situation the same elsewhere. However, maybe the data has improved over
>>>> the last year? Or maybe I got something wrong? Could be worth another look,
>>>> but my experience was that it's not all that useful, i.e. many stations
>>>> don't have entrances in the NAPTAN data at all, and often they are way off.
>>>> I still have the GPX I produced a year ago and would be happy to share it
>>>> of course.
>>>>
>>>> The experience with NAPTAN data partially made me to want to do
>>>> something about the station entrances. They are important access features
>>>> and I don't know of a good map source for them.
>>>>
>>>> Let me know what you think!
>>>> All the best,
>>>> Bjoern
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 8 May 2017 at 23:45, Stuart Reynolds <
>>>> stuart at travelinesoutheast.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> For reference, virtually all of the entrances are contained within the
>>>>> London NaPTAN data (https://data.gov.uk/dataset/naptan) which is the
>>>>> data that begins with the prefix 4900. The tube entrances all begin
>>>>> 4909ZZLU followed by a three letter code for the station plus a digit to
>>>>> distinguish between different entrances. For example, 4909ZZLUBNK0 would be
>>>>> an entrance to Bank, while 4900ZZLUTWH0 would be Tower Hill.
>>>>>
>>>>> While these do not give you accessibility information, they are all
>>>>> maintained by TfL and should give you accurate positional information.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Stuart
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8 May 2017, at 21:02, Derick Rethans <osm at derickrethans.nl> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this is a good idea. We have something UK wide, but doing it a
>>>>> local way makes a lot of sense (and easier to complete). Happy to do
>>>>> this "fix the tube network" thing over a few weekends (After the
>>>>> General
>>>>> Election that is).
>>>>>
>>>>> cheers,
>>>>> Derick
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 4 May 2017, Bjoern Hassler wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Grant, dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks for putting on the meeting, and thanks for the sponsored pizza!
>>>>> Good
>>>>>
>>>>> meeting last night, and god to have met you all.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Following up on the "Missing Maps London" idea, I thought we could may
>>>>> do
>>>>>
>>>>> some "map challenges" that look at specific things that need work. It
>>>>> might
>>>>>
>>>>> be a nice community building activity, and provide some continuity
>>>>> between
>>>>>
>>>>> meetings?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As an experiment, I've formulated one such challenges here
>>>>>
>>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/London_public_transport_
>>>>> tagging_scheme/Map_Challenges
>>>>>
>>>>> and added images / interactive maps / help for new mappers.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> See what you think and let me know whether there's interest. Results
>>>>> could
>>>>>
>>>>> be announced at the next meeting?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Bjoern
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 30 April 2017 at 17:30, Grant Slater <openstreetmap at firefishy.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We trying a new format OpenStreetMap evening meetup in London this
>>>>>
>>>>> Wednesday 3rd May 2017... We'd love for you to come along:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.meetup.com/OpenStreetMap-Q-A-Meetup/events/239366249/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> New to OpenStreetMap and want to learn more or need some help getting
>>>>>
>>>>> started? Already mapping or using OSM and have any Questions or
>>>>>
>>>>> Challenges or want to see what others are up to? This is the event for
>>>>>
>>>>> you.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We already have 3 great speakers lined up for the evening:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * Andy Allan - OpenCycleMap / Thunderforest
>>>>>
>>>>> * Astrid Thorseth - Missing Maps
>>>>>
>>>>> * Derick Rethans - London Mapper
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We have a great venue (bias, I work there), there will be pizza and
>>>>>
>>>>> soft drinks provided.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd love to hear any suggestions on how we could improve the event or
>>>>>
>>>>> what works elsewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Grant
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> Talk-gb-london mailing list
>>>>>
>>>>> Talk-gb-london at openstreetmap.org
>>>>>
>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-london
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> https://derickrethans.nl | https://xdebug.org | https://dram.io
>>>>> Like Xdebug? Consider a donation: https://xdebug.org/donate.php
>>>>> twitter: @derickr and @xdebug
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Talk-GB mailing list
>>>>> Talk-GB at openstreetmap.org
>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
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