[Talk-GB] Various pedestrian crossing mapping issues

[Paul Berry]

Hi Jerry,

All valid points and thanks for raising them. I really do think we should
try and find the different types of crossings on the ground (including
variations), photograph them, and put them on the relevant page on the Wiki
with tagging guidelines. I know there is a page already (
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:crossing) but it's far too busy. If
necessary, branch out to a UK-specific page. That would help steer us
towards a consensus for the UK at least. I'm pretty sure the defaults in
iD, for example, keep changing every time I map a classic zebra crossing.
We could then find crossings that don't appear to fit the categories and
flag them for resurveying, or even make it (part of) a future Quarterly
Project.

To get back to your primary concerns here, we could easily flag up where
crossings of any stripe(!) don't have a kerb tag. The vibration mode can be
determined by the presence of a small knurled wheel underneath the yellow
WAIT box; not sure what the tagging consensus is for that presently.

I've mapped island crossings as both island (if white light present) and
unmarked (if not) but that's just me.

I could do a detailed micromap of a few locations near me, with photos, and
we could start from there? If others already have, I'm sure they'll speak
up.

Regards,
*Paul*


On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 at 10:31, SK53 <sk53.osm at gmail.com> wrote:

> My father is now in his late '80s and not as nimble as he used to be. As a
> consequence I'm aware of certain things about various aspects of pedestrian
> crossings which either I'm not sure about mapping or have no idea. Most of
> these are definitely micromapping topics, but I think they are relevant in
> mapping for mobility.
>
> One of the more significant issues we've come across are sets of traffic
> lights at junctions with turning traffic. These nearly always have
> crossings marked in the sense that there are dropped kerbs & tactile
> paving, but because there is no pedestrian phase on the lights (and no
> pedestrian indicators) can be quite hazardous. Dad is now adopting routes
> which avoid these altogether.
>
> Presumably these are just crossing=traffic_lights with kerb=lowered and
> tactile_paving=yes. If so it becomes really important to add crossing_ref
> for pelican/puffin/toucan/pegasus crossings with Ampelmännchen
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampelmännchen> (little green men). However
> I suspect we should move towards the presence of lights being marked
> explicitly. I'm not sure if a tag exists.
>
> Secondly, even existing Pelican crossings seem to have shorter and shorter
> crossing times, to the extent that if my father doesn't set out as soon as
> the lights turn (for the traffic) he risks being marooned at the island
> half-way. We trying to talk to the council about this, but I presume it's
> an aspect of car-centric traffic planning. Presumably one could time the
> 'green man' phase which I could do for the ones we use most frequently, but
> it would get tedious to do lots. Perhaps an FOI request might yield some
> information.
>
> On a related note there are quite a lot of crossings in London with a
> countdown timer indicating seconds left for pedestrians. I first
> encountered these in Caceres in 2006, but have never known the appropriate
> tag.
>
> Thirdly, island crossings marked by a white non-flashing beacon with a
> mid-carriageway refuge, dropped kerbs and (possibly tactile paving) are
> common in parts of the country. Once again I'm not sure exactly how to map
> these as distinct from other crossing=island (e.g., with the island just
> marked with bollards).
>
> Fourthly, I think we often tag zebra-style crossings with crossing_ref
> even when these are technically not zebra crossings (no Belisha beacons, no
> zigzag no stopping zones either side, etc). Typically these will be on
> service roads in car parks or campuses (school, university, hospital etc).
> Any suggestions as to whether we should remove crossing_ref or use a
> different value.
>
> If I'm going to map some of these details I'd also like some guidance as
> to how to determine if a crossing has a vibration mode for blind/partially
> sighted people. The RNIB show a picture
> <https://www.rnib.org.uk/campaigning-campaign-resources-my-street/crossings>
> of a man feeling underneath the indicator, but I don't know any more than
> that.
>
> Another thing I've noticed is that many islands on pedestrian crossings
> are rather narrow for the larger kind of mobility scooter or wheelchair.
> Again no idea of how to approach this.
>
> Has mapped any of the detailed things? Should we be more precise with
> crossing_ref?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
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