[Talk-GB] Various pedestrian crossing mapping issues

[SK53]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for some great suggestions to get the ball rolling. I can certainly
get photos of many of the crossings I've mentioned (if I don't have
multiple examples already).

Cheers,

Jerry

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 at 14:02, Paul Berry <pmberry2007 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Jerry,
>
> All valid points and thanks for raising them. I really do think we should
> try and find the different types of crossings on the ground (including
> variations), photograph them, and put them on the relevant page on the Wiki
> with tagging guidelines. I know there is a page already (
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:crossing) but it's far too busy.
> If necessary, branch out to a UK-specific page. That would help steer us
> towards a consensus for the UK at least. I'm pretty sure the defaults in
> iD, for example, keep changing every time I map a classic zebra crossing.
> We could then find crossings that don't appear to fit the categories and
> flag them for resurveying, or even make it (part of) a future Quarterly
> Project.
>
> To get back to your primary concerns here, we could easily flag up where
> crossings of any stripe(!) don't have a kerb tag. The vibration mode can be
> determined by the presence of a small knurled wheel underneath the yellow
> WAIT box; not sure what the tagging consensus is for that presently.
>
> I've mapped island crossings as both island (if white light present) and
> unmarked (if not) but that's just me.
>
> I could do a detailed micromap of a few locations near me, with photos,
> and we could start from there? If others already have, I'm sure they'll
> speak up.
>
> Regards,
> *Paul*
>
>
> On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 at 10:31, SK53 <sk53.osm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> My father is now in his late '80s and not as nimble as he used to be. As
>> a consequence I'm aware of certain things about various aspects of
>> pedestrian crossings which either I'm not sure about mapping or have no
>> idea. Most of these are definitely micromapping topics, but I think they
>> are relevant in mapping for mobility.
>>
>> One of the more significant issues we've come across are sets of traffic
>> lights at junctions with turning traffic. These nearly always have
>> crossings marked in the sense that there are dropped kerbs & tactile
>> paving, but because there is no pedestrian phase on the lights (and no
>> pedestrian indicators) can be quite hazardous. Dad is now adopting routes
>> which avoid these altogether.
>>
>> Presumably these are just crossing=traffic_lights with kerb=lowered and
>> tactile_paving=yes. If so it becomes really important to add crossing_ref
>> for pelican/puffin/toucan/pegasus crossings with Ampelmännchen
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampelmännchen> (little green men).
>> However I suspect we should move towards the presence of lights being
>> marked explicitly. I'm not sure if a tag exists.
>>
>> Secondly, even existing Pelican crossings seem to have shorter and
>> shorter crossing times, to the extent that if my father doesn't set out as
>> soon as the lights turn (for the traffic) he risks being marooned at the
>> island half-way. We trying to talk to the council about this, but I presume
>> it's an aspect of car-centric traffic planning. Presumably one could time
>> the 'green man' phase which I could do for the ones we use most frequently,
>> but it would get tedious to do lots. Perhaps an FOI request might yield
>> some information.
>>
>> On a related note there are quite a lot of crossings in London with a
>> countdown timer indicating seconds left for pedestrians. I first
>> encountered these in Caceres in 2006, but have never known the appropriate
>> tag.
>>
>> Thirdly, island crossings marked by a white non-flashing beacon with a
>> mid-carriageway refuge, dropped kerbs and (possibly tactile paving) are
>> common in parts of the country. Once again I'm not sure exactly how to map
>> these as distinct from other crossing=island (e.g., with the island just
>> marked with bollards).
>>
>> Fourthly, I think we often tag zebra-style crossings with crossing_ref
>> even when these are technically not zebra crossings (no Belisha beacons, no
>> zigzag no stopping zones either side, etc). Typically these will be on
>> service roads in car parks or campuses (school, university, hospital etc).
>> Any suggestions as to whether we should remove crossing_ref or use a
>> different value.
>>
>> If I'm going to map some of these details I'd also like some guidance as
>> to how to determine if a crossing has a vibration mode for blind/partially
>> sighted people. The RNIB show a picture
>> <https://www.rnib.org.uk/campaigning-campaign-resources-my-street/crossings>
>> of a man feeling underneath the indicator, but I don't know any more than
>> that.
>>
>> Another thing I've noticed is that many islands on pedestrian crossings
>> are rather narrow for the larger kind of mobility scooter or wheelchair.
>> Again no idea of how to approach this.
>>
>> Has mapped any of the detailed things? Should we be more precise with
>> crossing_ref?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>>
>>
>>
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