[Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Andy Townsend]

Hi Gruff, hi Ben,

On 16/10/2020 14:08, Gruff Owen wrote:
>
> The ability to include an :en or :cy tag name field is really helpful 
> for this but it's unfortunate that ultimately we have to choose a 
> single name tag for each place name - giving the impression that one 
> language has precedence over another.

Well, we really don't need to choose that "one language has precedence 
over another".  If the :cy and :en data is mapped it's available for 
everyone to use.  It's entirely possible, right now, to create a map 
using only :cy names (as Ben and Andy have pointed out, 
https://openstreetmap.cymru/ does exactly that already). Other maps can 
choose to use :en names in one area and :cy in others (see 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=9&lat=51.93&lon=-4.182 
for an example of that), or hyphenate names Welsh-first or 
English-first, or use different colours for different languages, or, or...

The whole point of OSM is that it is more than just one map.

>
> With that in mind, and admittedly polemicising the debate a little. If 
> we accept the premise that the native language of Wales is Welsh and 
> that OSM is a community mapping project where we have an opportunity 
> to respect native communities in a way that past colonial mapmakers 
> didn't. Could we take this as an opportunity to prioritise authentic 
> Welsh place names where that's possible?

OpenStreetMap's approach to disputed territories tries to be neutral - 
see 
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf 
.  It favours "on the ground" current usage.  The Data Working Group 
gets _lots_ of requests along the lines of "the official language of 
country X is Y, therefore all placenames in country X should be 
displayed at osm.org in language Y".  Where the majority of people in an 
area speak a different language to the majority of people in the rest of 
the country, it is only fair to reflect that local language in the 
"name" tag.  OSM should not be making decisions about which placenames 
are more "authentic" than others via some sort of "historical 
authenticity test".  Imagine trying to apply that to Kaliningrad 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1674442 (look at all the 
"old_name" tags there for context).  In Wales, OSM has occasionally had 
mappers making "forced language changes" both ways - either changing 
names in predominantly English-speaking areas to Welsh versions of the 
original English and English speakers changing original (and most common 
in local usage) Welsh names to English versions.

> One other way to settle this would be to seek guidance from an 
> external body. Does the Welsh Government have a position on place 
> names that we can refer to? I notice that the Welsh Language 
> Commissioner provides a recommended list of standardised place names 
> for Wales which is licensed under OGL 3.0:
>
> http://www.comisiynyddygymraeg.cymru/english/commissioner/placenames/Pages/Search.aspx 
> <http://www.comisiynyddygymraeg.cymru/english/commissioner/placenames/Pages/Search.aspx>

Different OSM communities do this in different ways.  I believe that in 
Ireland name:ga is usually the "official" version, which may differ from 
local usage.  Sometimes that loses some local colour - in Dublin 
"Anglesea Road" used to be signed as "Bóthar Môn" but now in OSM it's 
just "Bóthar Anglesea".  See also 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/52241235 which I've heard referred to 
as "Dingle / An Daingean" (there's lots of politics both national and 
local associated with that).

>
> All of the above is written with the big caveat that I'm new to OSM 
> and not a Welsh language or place name expert in any way, I wouldn't 
> go against the group decision on this and have been quite conservative 
> with my edits so far because I know it's a huge topic to get into. 
> Overall I think you should be congratulated for broaching the subject 
> and trying to pin down a policy on it as it really does stir up a lot 
> of strong sentiment in this part of the world!

As I'm sure Ben and Mapio Cymru would echo, thanks for making sure that 
Welsh names of places are recorded where they currently are not.  It 
always strikes me as a bit jarring to see English names jumping out in 
predominantly Welsh areas at https://map.atownsend.org.uk/ (which will 
use the default "name" tag if name:cy is missing in areas where it's 
trying to show Welsh names).

Moving on to Ben's original mail:

On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 at 14:06, Ben Proctor <ben at benproctor.co.uk 
<mailto:ben at benproctor.co.uk>> wrote:
>
>
>     From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for
>     discussion, replacing this text with the following (reasoning
>     follows):
>
>     /[starts/---]
>     In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which the
>     place is widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but
>     not both. So name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but
>     not name: Wales/Cymru.
>     /
>
/Where I suspect there may be further questions is where a place is 
known in Welsh-speaking areas as one name and in English-speaking areas 
as another.  In OSM typically the "name" tag would be set according to 
the locally-used language, so "Yr Wyddfa" for 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1745517169 makes sense to me./

/That gets tricky for areas that include multiple languages - 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/58437 is currently "name=Cymru / 
Wales" in OSM, but I'll let people who are actually from that area 
comment on whether that's appropriate or not.
/

/
/

>     /
>     name:en should be used to give the name by which the place or
>     feature is known in English.
>     name:cy should be used to give the name by which the place or
>     feature is known in Welsh
>
>     Even though this will lead to apparent duplication. For example:
>
>     name: Swansea
>     name:en Swansea
>     name:cy Abertawe
>
>     This allows places and features to be named unambiguously and so
>     rather than duplication is conveying useful new information./
>     /[---/ends]/
>
/I'd agree that that bit (duplicating names) does make sense for 
essentially the same reasons as you - so that people do know that "yes 
there is an English name" and "yes there is a Welsh name".  Otherwise if 
someone was to change the name there to "name=Swansea / Abertawe" it 
would break map.atownsend.org.uk which explicitly tries not to show 
compound names in Wales, England or Scotland.  Someone who does want to 
show compound names can of course do that using "name:cy / name:en".  
For completeness, as you also mention, some OSM communities do use 
compound names.  The Brussels region of Belgium is another example, and 
hyphenated names there are I believe "the official names".  That sort of 
tagging hasn't traditionally been done in Wales, England, or Scotland 
though.
/

Best Regards,

Andy

For completeness - I'm both a member of OSM's Data Working Group who 
tend to handle some of these language disputes and separately to that 
the developer of https://map.atownsend.org.uk/ .

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