[Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

Wed Oct 21 11:10:18 UTC 2020

Thanks to everyone who has chipped in on this thread so far.

I'd like to draw out what I see as the key threads of the discussion so far:
The use of :cy and :en name tags should be encouraged. It allows more
flexibility in rendering and adds clarity. So far this hasn't been a very
controversial part of the discussion.

I think the wiki could be revised to emphasise this without causing too
much concern.

There isn't consensus on the use of the name: tag. I think there several
suggestions have been floated:

   - always use the name that is used in Welsh
   - use the name that is used by the "local population" (which is what the
   wiki currently suggests)
   - use the Welsh name and English name together separated by a hyphen
   (which is the practice in some other countries)
   - use the name on local signage

We have had advice that OSM should maintain neutrality. I'm sure that is
the sensible position to aim for. This tends to point us to using the name
on local signage or the name used by the "local population".

>From my perspective identifying the name used by the local population is
likely to be fraught in many cases and so a mapper would probably be best
advised to refer to local signage.

Local signage will frequently show the cy: name and the en: name.

So I *think* this might be pointing us towards suggesting the name: tag
should reflect local signage. This would inevitably lead to more dual
naming in the name: tag.

What does everyone think?

On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 5:08 PM Andy Townsend <ajt1047 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Gruff, hi Ben,
>
> On 16/10/2020 14:08, Gruff Owen wrote:
>
>
> The ability to include an :en or :cy tag name field is really helpful for
> this but it's unfortunate that ultimately we have to choose a single name
> tag for each place name - giving the impression that one language has
> precedence over another.
>
> Well, we really don't need to choose that "one language has precedence
> over another".  If the :cy and :en data is mapped it's available for
> everyone to use.  It's entirely possible, right now, to create a map using
> only :cy names (as Ben and Andy have pointed out,
> https://openstreetmap.cymru/ does exactly that already).  Other maps can
> choose to use :en names in one area and :cy in others (see
> https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=9&lat=51.93&lon=-4.182
> for an example of that), or hyphenate names Welsh-first or English-first,
> or use different colours for different languages, or, or...
>
> The whole point of OSM is that it is more than just one map.
>
>
> With that in mind, and admittedly polemicising the debate a little. If we
> accept the premise that the native language of Wales is Welsh and that OSM
> is a community mapping project where we have an opportunity to respect
> native communities in a way that past colonial mapmakers didn't. Could we
> take this as an opportunity to prioritise authentic Welsh place names where
> that's possible?
>
> OpenStreetMap's approach to disputed territories tries to be neutral - see
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf
> .  It favours "on the ground" current usage.  The Data Working Group gets
> _lots_ of requests along the lines of "the official language of country X
> is Y, therefore all placenames in country X should be displayed at osm.org
> in language Y".  Where the majority of people in an area speak a different
> language to the majority of people in the rest of the country, it is only
> fair to reflect that local language in the "name" tag.  OSM should not be
> making decisions about which placenames are more "authentic" than others
> via some sort of "historical authenticity test".  Imagine trying to apply
> that to Kaliningrad https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1674442 (look
> at all the "old_name" tags there for context).  In Wales, OSM has
> occasionally had mappers making "forced language changes" both ways -
> either changing names in predominantly English-speaking areas to Welsh
> versions of the original English and English speakers changing original
> (and most common in local usage) Welsh names to English versions.
>
> One other way to settle this would be to seek guidance from an external
> body. Does the Welsh Government have a position on place names that we can
> refer to? I notice that the Welsh Language Commissioner provides a
> recommended list of standardised place names for Wales which is licensed
> under OGL 3.0:
>
>
> http://www.comisiynyddygymraeg.cymru/english/commissioner/placenames/Pages/Search.aspx
>
> Different OSM communities do this in different ways.  I believe that in
> Ireland name:ga is usually the "official" version, which may differ from
> local usage.  Sometimes that loses some local colour - in Dublin "Anglesea
> Road" used to be signed as "Bóthar Môn" but now in OSM it's just "Bóthar
> Anglesea".  See also https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/52241235 which
> I've heard referred to as "Dingle / An Daingean" (there's lots of politics
> both national and local associated with that).
>
>
> All of the above is written with the big caveat that I'm new to OSM and
> not a Welsh language or place name expert in any way, I wouldn't go against
> the group decision on this and have been quite conservative with my edits
> so far because I know it's a huge topic to get into. Overall I think you
> should be congratulated for broaching the subject and trying to pin down a
> policy on it as it really does stir up a lot of strong sentiment in this
> part of the world!
>
> As I'm sure Ben and Mapio Cymru would echo, thanks for making sure that
> Welsh names of places are recorded where they currently are not.  It always
> strikes me as a bit jarring to see English names jumping out in
> predominantly Welsh areas at https://map.atownsend.org.uk/ (which will
> use the default "name" tag if name:cy is missing in areas where it's trying
> to show Welsh names).
>
> Moving on to Ben's original mail:
> On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 at 14:06, Ben Proctor <ben at benproctor.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>> From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for discussion,
>> replacing this text with the following (reasoning follows):
>>
>>
>>
>> *[starts/---] In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which
>> the place is widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but not
>> both. So name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but not name:
>> Wales/Cymru. *
>>
> *Where I suspect there may be further questions is where a place is known
> in Welsh-speaking areas as one name and in English-speaking areas as
> another.  In OSM typically the "name" tag would be set according to the
> locally-used language, so "Yr Wyddfa" for
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1745517169
> <https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1745517169> makes sense to me.*
>
>
> *That gets tricky for areas that include multiple languages -
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/58437
> <https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/58437> is currently "name=Cymru /
> Wales" in OSM, but I'll let people who are actually from that area comment
> on whether that's appropriate or not. *
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> * name:en should be used to give the name by which the place or feature
>> is known in English. name:cy should be used to give the name by which the
>> place or feature is known in Welsh Even though this will lead to apparent
>> duplication. For example: name: Swansea name:en Swansea name:cy Abertawe
>> This allows places and features to be named unambiguously and so rather
>> than duplication is conveying useful new information.*
>> *[---/ends]*
>>
>
> *I'd agree that that bit (duplicating names) does make sense for
> essentially the same reasons as you - so that people do know that "yes
> there is an English name" and "yes there is a Welsh name".  Otherwise if
> someone was to change the name there to "name=Swansea / Abertawe" it would
> break map.atownsend.org.uk <http://map.atownsend.org.uk> which explicitly
> tries not to show compound names in Wales, England or Scotland.  Someone
> who does want to show compound names can of course do that using "name:cy /
> name:en".  For completeness, as you also mention, some OSM communities do
> use compound names.  The Brussels region of Belgium is another example, and
> hyphenated names there are I believe "the official names".  That sort of
> tagging hasn't traditionally been done in Wales, England, or Scotland
> though. *
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
> For completeness - I'm both a member of OSM's Data Working Group who tend
> to handle some of these language disputes and separately to that the
> developer of https://map.atownsend.org.uk/ .
>
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