[Talk-GB] Conflation of TfL data into OSM (was: Is TfL data allowed on OSM?)

[Andy Townsend]

On 04/07/2022 21:02, Rob Nickerson wrote:
>
> Firstly, has anyone had much luck in establishing contact? There are 
> references in this thread to "waiting for them to reply here" but I'd 
> like to establish if someone has even managed to flag "here" with them!
>
I've been in contact with the mapper; they've said they want to wait for 
their supervisor(s) (apparently currently on leave) to reply.  It seems 
only fair to let them get their feet under the desk again and respond.  
I've deliberately been a bit vague in earlier messages (e.g. "waiting 
for them to reply here") because everyone deserves a break :)


> Fortunately there seems to be lots of options:
>
> - the two OSM user accounts referred to on the wiki page.

One of those is the mapper that I've been in contact with; the 
changesets of the other aren't obviously related to this project. 
Assuming both are "organised editors", neither mapper's profile is 
compliant with the OEG.


> - Ed's email address he posted to talk-gb-london from.

I don't know for certain, but I'm guessing that "Ed" is the person (or 
one of the people) who is on leave.


> - Aidan Mcinerny's LinkedIn account as mentioned on 
> https://thegeomob.com/post/june-15th-2022-geomoblon-details

I'm guessing, but might that be 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Aidanmci1 (a 
wiki editor of 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TfL_Cycling_Infrastructure_Database 
)?  However, neither that person nor their company mentioned at the 
geomob page is referenced by name at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TfL_Cycling_Infrastructure_Database 
.  How exactly do they fit in?


>
> For now, I have gone a different route and asked the geomob organisers 
> if they can put me in contact. Fingers crossed this works as a bit of 
> support and training could help get this project back on track :-)
>
> P.s. looking at their geomob slides, it's clear that they think 
> they've followed the import guidelines.

Frankly, I'm struggling to find a way to reply to that suggestion in a 
way that wouldn't (rightly) get me reprimanded by the list moderators.

Sometimes we need to cut people some slack because they're unfamiliar 
with OSM processes and or they don't have a translation of 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines in their native 
language.  Neither is the case here.  I'm sure that the initial 
consultancy (back in 2019) made good suggestions - much of 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TfL_Cycling_Infrastructure_Database 
seems to date from then, and it certainly "talks a good talk". The 
problem seems to be that much of this advice was ignored and someone 
decided to import lots of outdated information without discussion.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines#Discuss_your_proposed_import 
is quite clear.  Among other things, it says "Discuss your import on the 
imports at openstreetmap.org mailing list and with appropriate local 
communities".  This is not a complicated, difficult to grasp technical 
issue - anyone out of primary school will understand that "discuss" 
implies a two-way conversation, including answering the questions that 
people ask.

Ed Whittaker did post to the imports list at 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports/2022-June/006878.html 
and said "Any feedback would be much appreciated".  Unfortunately, all 
replies to that message seem to have been ignored, as were the messages 
here, and also a large number of changeset comments at 
http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=15976978 .

However, let's give them the chance to return and respond.

After that, if a revert of the out-of-date data imported so far is 
needed the DWG are probably the most experienced do that. Next, I'd 
expect the person/people in charge of the import to:

  * Follow https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines (all of
    the steps, including discussion, including actually replying to
    questions)
  * Follow
    https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Organised_Editing_Guidelines
    (again, all of the steps, including mapper training to enable them
    to do conflation properly, and identifying each mapper's account on
    their profile page as associated with the import)
  * (assuming that everyone is happy) perform the import carefully
    keeping people on this list updated as it goes along.

Best Regards,

Andy

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