[Talk-ko] Please stop using name=한글 (English) form

[Andrew Errington]

On Sun, 27 Apr 2014 12:30:42 Changwoo Ryu wrote:
> 2014-04-27 9:07 GMT+09:00 Andrew Errington <erringtona at gmail.com>:
> > On Sat, 26 Apr 2014 23:01:58 Changwoo Ryu wrote:
> >> As I stated earlier, the rule of "name" tag is simple and clear. It
> >> should be written as a local name [1]. The long "한글 (English)" form
> >> makes the maps have more text and look more confusing.
> >> 
> >> If you are not good enough to read Hangul names, please contribute to
> >> the map internationalization [2], to make the implementations use the
> >> English localized name:en tag.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name
> >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names
> >> 
> >> [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_internationalization
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Talk-ko mailing list
> >> Talk-ko at openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
> > 
> > You must be new here.
> > 
> > The reason we have "name=한글 (English)" is historical.  In 2008 some
> > tagging guidelines were published in the wiki:
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ko:Map_Features
> > 
> > These guidelines included the convention to use "name=한글 (English)". 
> > Most people who started mapping Korea have been following these
> > guidelines.  I think that originally they were copied from the Japanese
> > mapping guidelines:
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Japan
> > 
> > To make things a little easier, I published this page, which clarifies
> > the convention:
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Korea_Naming_Convention
> > 
> > I disagree that the maps look more confusing (and I am good enough to
> > read Hangul :) ).  It's much more useful to me to see Hangul and English
> > together, and apparently the Korean people agree, since you have spent
> > millions of dollars on putting bilingual signs on all of the roads and
> > houses. I documented that here:
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Korea_Streetsigns
> 
> I have read those wiki pages when I begin edit in 2011, And I have
> followed that convention in most cases. But recently when I begin to
> add names to small roads, I found the map I edited began to look
> confusing with long texts.

Ah, so what you are saying is that the map looks ugly with long strings of 
text on a short road, so you will make the string shorter.  Is that right?  
That is called 'tagging for the renderer', which is not a good thing to do.  
The correct solution is to fix the renderer, so that it will not print the 
name if the road is too small.  After all, if we zoom in, the road becomes 
bigger, and the text will fit. 

And again, the map on osm.org is only an example.  If you don't like it you 
should make a better map, not edit the data so that it 'looks nice'.

> > However, I agree that it's tedious, and we should consider dropping the
> > convention.  I have learned that mappers in Japan have recently decided
> > to do the same (although the wiki has not been updated everywhere to
> > show this).
> > 
> > Hopefully, the international mapping project will improve and users
> > around the world will be able to choose a map labelled in Korean, or in
> > English, or both.
> 
> I really hope map internationalization be improved to display local names.
> 
> I also think the same global policy for "name" is better for
> implementing internationalization. With different policies, map
> implementations need different naming algorithms for different areas.
> Think about names of form "English (local name)" for English world
> tourist map.

Indeed.  Some work has been done on this already:
http://mlm.jochentopf.com/

If you want to see Korean only, then enter "ko" into the box.  If you want to 
see something like the original convention then enter "ko|en".

But, it only works properly if you enter name:ko into the database for 
everything.  This is a Good Thing because you could do some mapping work in 
the UK, for example, and add Hangul labels for the place names.  This would 
make it more convenient for Korean visitors to the UK.

The renderer should know the chosen language (English, Korean, whatever) and 
look for name:lang when it wants to draw a label.  If the language is not 
found than name=* (without a language tag) should be used.

> > Personally, I would like to follow the recommendations in reference [1]
> > [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name
> > name=Whatever is on the street sign
> > name:en=English, or Korean romanisation
> > name:ko=Hangul
> > 
> > What this really means is name=* should include Korean and English,
> > because that is what is on the sign.
> 
> I don't agree on this point. It really means it should be written as
> the common and official name, it does not mean literally same text,
> which may have translations and abbreviated forms etc.

What is the common or official name?  Surely it's the name on the sign?  If 
it's not the name on the sign, how can we learn the common or official name?

For example, Paris Baguette.  The sign is in English!  I think it should be 
tagged like this:

name=Paris Baguette
name:en=Paris Baguette
name:ko=파리바게뜨

Koreans *know* 파리바게뜨, but everyone else will see "Paris Baguette", in big 
letters, on the store sign.
 
> The English translations in signs are just for convenience. Some
> Korean street signs even have Japanese and Chinese for Asian tourists.
> Actually most Asian streetsigns have English translation, but just for
> tourist convenience. Even some Korea Towns in US have streetsigns with
> Hangul. I don't think all their "name" tags should be written with
> multiple languages.

I think the Korean on these signs in Korea is only for the convenience of 
Koreans. :)

In the case where I see Japanese and Chinese text on a sign I have copied them 
into name:ja and name:zh respectively.  It will make the map more useful to 
people from other countries.

Overall I think we should be trying to make the data *more convenient* for 
*everybody*.

Best wishes,

Andrew

> Cheers
> 
> > Don't forget, mappers around the world are also editing data in Korea, so
> > these guidelines must be simple and clear for anyone to understand. 
> > Also, the map on the OSM page is only an example.  Anyone can make a map
> > and use any name tag they please.  If we were to make a Korean-map and
> > label it with the name:ko=* tags then it would all be in Korean (this
> > means you have to copy the Korean information from name=* to name:ko=*).
> > 
> > Best wishes,
> > 
> > Andrew
> > 
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