[Talk-ko] Please stop using name=한글 (English) form

Sun Apr 27 05:14:35 UTC 2014

2014-04-27 13:18 GMT+09:00 Andrew Errington <erringtona at gmail.com>:
> On Sun, 27 Apr 2014 12:30:42 Changwoo Ryu wrote:
>> 2014-04-27 9:07 GMT+09:00 Andrew Errington <erringtona at gmail.com>:
>> > On Sat, 26 Apr 2014 23:01:58 Changwoo Ryu wrote:
>> >> As I stated earlier, the rule of "name" tag is simple and clear. It
>> >> should be written as a local name [1]. The long "한글 (English)" form
>> >> makes the maps have more text and look more confusing.
>> >>
>> >> If you are not good enough to read Hangul names, please contribute to
>> >> the map internationalization [2], to make the implementations use the
>> >> English localized name:en tag.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name
>> >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names
>> >>
>> >> [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_internationalization
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Talk-ko mailing list
>> >> Talk-ko at openstreetmap.org
>> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
>> >
>> > You must be new here.
>> >
>> > The reason we have "name=한글 (English)" is historical.  In 2008 some
>> > tagging guidelines were published in the wiki:
>> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ko:Map_Features
>> >
>> > These guidelines included the convention to use "name=한글 (English)".
>> > Most people who started mapping Korea have been following these
>> > guidelines.  I think that originally they were copied from the Japanese
>> > mapping guidelines:
>> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Japan
>> >
>> > To make things a little easier, I published this page, which clarifies
>> > the convention:
>> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Korea_Naming_Convention
>> >
>> > I disagree that the maps look more confusing (and I am good enough to
>> > read Hangul :) ).  It's much more useful to me to see Hangul and English
>> > together, and apparently the Korean people agree, since you have spent
>> > millions of dollars on putting bilingual signs on all of the roads and
>> > houses. I documented that here:
>> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Korea_Streetsigns
>>
>> I have read those wiki pages when I begin edit in 2011, And I have
>> followed that convention in most cases. But recently when I begin to
>> add names to small roads, I found the map I edited began to look
>> confusing with long texts.
>
> Ah, so what you are saying is that the map looks ugly with long strings of
> text on a short road, so you will make the string shorter.  Is that right?
> That is called 'tagging for the renderer', which is not a good thing to do.
> The correct solution is to fix the renderer, so that it will not print the
> name if the road is too small.  After all, if we zoom in, the road becomes
> bigger, and the text will fit.
>
> And again, the map on osm.org is only an example.  If you don't like it you
> should make a better map, not edit the data so that it 'looks nice'.

I don't edit based on rendering but IMO single local name generally
looks better than two names with same information in two languages.
Sometimes long names is inevitable for more information. But I don't
think Bi-lingual names are preferred for default.

>> > However, I agree that it's tedious, and we should consider dropping the
>> > convention.  I have learned that mappers in Japan have recently decided
>> > to do the same (although the wiki has not been updated everywhere to
>> > show this).
>> >
>> > Hopefully, the international mapping project will improve and users
>> > around the world will be able to choose a map labelled in Korean, or in
>> > English, or both.
>>
>> I really hope map internationalization be improved to display local names.
>>
>> I also think the same global policy for "name" is better for
>> implementing internationalization. With different policies, map
>> implementations need different naming algorithms for different areas.
>> Think about names of form "English (local name)" for English world
>> tourist map.
>
> Indeed.  Some work has been done on this already:
> http://mlm.jochentopf.com/
>
> If you want to see Korean only, then enter "ko" into the box.  If you want to
> see something like the original convention then enter "ko|en".
>
> But, it only works properly if you enter name:ko into the database for
> everything.  This is a Good Thing because you could do some mapping work in
> the UK, for example, and add Hangul labels for the place names.  This would
> make it more convenient for Korean visitors to the UK.
>
> The renderer should know the chosen language (English, Korean, whatever) and
> look for name:lang when it wants to draw a label.  If the language is not
> found than name=* (without a language tag) should be used.
>
>> > Personally, I would like to follow the recommendations in reference [1]
>> > [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name
>> > name=Whatever is on the street sign
>> > name:en=English, or Korean romanisation
>> > name:ko=Hangul
>> >
>> > What this really means is name=* should include Korean and English,
>> > because that is what is on the sign.
>>
>> I don't agree on this point. It really means it should be written as
>> the common and official name, it does not mean literally same text,
>> which may have translations and abbreviated forms etc.
>
> What is the common or official name?  Surely it's the name on the sign?  If
> it's not the name on the sign, how can we learn the common or official name?
>
> For example, Paris Baguette.  The sign is in English!  I think it should be
> tagged like this:
>
> name=Paris Baguette
> name:en=Paris Baguette
> name:ko=파리바게뜨
>
> Koreans *know* 파리바게뜨, but everyone else will see "Paris Baguette", in big
> letters, on the store sign.

Yeah, the sign is exactly "Paris Baguette Cafe". don't forget the
"Cafe" in cursive. And sometimes telephone numbers are written on the
signs. :)

English streetsigns usually have abbreviation like "Br." for "Bridge",
"Bld" for "Building", "Hwy" for "Highway", etc. So should they be
written in the same abbreviated way?

Please don't be pedantic.

>> The English translations in signs are just for convenience. Some
>> Korean street signs even have Japanese and Chinese for Asian tourists.
>> Actually most Asian streetsigns have English translation, but just for
>> tourist convenience. Even some Korea Towns in US have streetsigns with
>> Hangul. I don't think all their "name" tags should be written with
>> multiple languages.
>
> I think the Korean on these signs in Korea is only for the convenience of
> Koreans. :)
>
> In the case where I see Japanese and Chinese text on a sign I have copied them
> into name:ja and name:zh respectively.  It will make the map more useful to
> people from other countries.

I think it is also enough to copy English text on a sign to "name:en".

Changwoo

> Overall I think we should be trying to make the data *more convenient* for
> *everybody*.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Andrew
>
>> Cheers
>>
>> > Don't forget, mappers around the world are also editing data in Korea, so
>> > these guidelines must be simple and clear for anyone to understand.
>> > Also, the map on the OSM page is only an example.  Anyone can make a map
>> > and use any name tag they please.  If we were to make a Korean-map and
>> > label it with the name:ko=* tags then it would all be in Korean (this
>> > means you have to copy the Korean information from name=* to name:ko=*).
>> >
>> > Best wishes,
>> >
>> > Andrew
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> > Talk-ko at openstreetmap.org
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
>>
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>
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