[Talk-nz] Place names

Fri Nov 12 02:22:22 UTC 2021

Seeing that there is overwhelming consensus in favor of using macrons for
the "name" tag, the wiki pages that Eliot mentioned should be updated.
However, I do have a question regarding the "name:en" tag. Should macrons
be used there? I ask because the names with macrons are used in English, so
in a way it can be considered the English name, but at the same time,
English itself doesn't use macrons.

On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 9:56 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I disagree that using the official spelling even though an outdated sign
> has a different spelling represents an ideal world and not reality. If the
> name change was something significantly different from the common name or
> what is displayed on signs, for example Port Elizabeth being renamed
> to Gqeberha, then I do agree that the name on the signs should be used.
> However, the addition to a macron is not vastly different from what is
> shown on signs. And I would argue that the spelling with macrons would be
> the common name as it is most commonly used by government and businesses.
>
> As for the last part, I do understand kiwiAs's concern, but I have not
> seen anyone harassing anyone. So far there have been one or two dissenting
> opinions, but I have not seen anything rude, accusatory, or hateful written
> here. In fact, it was kiwiAs that twice accused me of trying to push a
> political or social agenda because I favor the use of the official
> spelling, which includes macrons.
>
> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 9:30 PM Mike Kittridge <mgkittridge at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> That sounds totally reasonable. As I said in an earlier email, it seems
>> like a very reasonable interpretation of the official OSM wiki that the
>> name tag should be what's on the ground and sign posted.
>> And I do hope people are not actually harassing him about this. It's a
>> real pity that people who are trying to contribute and follow the
>> recommended guidelines are afraid to have open discussions because of fear
>> of harassment.
>>
>> If the OSM contributors generally want to use the official gazetteer name
>> when sign posts seem incorrect, then that's fine. We'll just need to make
>> that clear in some NZ specific OSM wiki page that can be referenced.
>>
>> And I know this may seem odd, but my understanding of why the name tag
>> (and most other OSM tags) is meant to represent what's "on the ground" is
>> because OSM is meant to represent the current state of what's on the
>> ground, and not some idealised state. If a sign is literally misspelled,
>> then the tag for that sign should have the misspelled name. Once the sign
>> has been fixed and is spelled correctly, then the tag should be updated to
>> represent that.
>> I know in practice this may be an unnecessary waste of time to keep
>> changing tags back and forth, but I just want people to understand the
>> reasoning behind it and that people like kiwiAs aren't just harboring some
>> racist hatred.
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 4:02 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I asked kiwiAs again if they would join the discussion, and this was the
>>> reply:
>>>
>>> "No, I won’t be taking part in the discussion on the mailing list, for
>>> two reasons. First, participating in the mailing list discussion will
>>> reveal my email address, increasing the likelihood that I’ll undergo future
>>> online harassment (by fanatics pushing the macron agenda) - something that
>>> has happened in the past, which forced me to change my OSM username. But
>>> second, despite what people might thing, I really don’t care all that much
>>> about this. I just care about following the rules. In this case, OSM’s
>>> documented rule for the “name” tag, which clearly states that it should
>>> follow the ‘on the ground’ rule. But should that rule change in the future
>>> (and be clearly documented, like the current rule), then I’ll follow
>>> whatever the new rule says."
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 1:03 AM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I wanted to mention that I did share the Talk-NZ link with kiwiAs so
>>>> they can join the discussion here. I'm not sure if they will join, but I
>>>> did share the link.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 9:38 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I am aware of the difference of "de jure" and "de facto". However, in
>>>>> this case, with most organisations using the de jure name, it is therefore
>>>>> the de facto common name.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 5:17 PM Andrew Douglas-Clifford <
>>>>> adouglasclifford at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree, the name tag should reference the official place name
>>>>>> wherever possible, this includes the use of macrons. That has been my
>>>>>> consistent approach.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> Andrew
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 12:13 Eliot Blennerhassett <
>>>>>> eliot at blennerhassett.gen.nz> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/11/21 11:56, Michael Stark wrote:
>>>>>>> > Should place names include macrons in the "name" tag? I'm trying
>>>>>>> to get some sort of consensus as one user keeps edit warring with myself
>>>>>>> and others. DWG is unwilling to step in do anything.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Certainly macrons are part of some official place names.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> E.g. Tāmaki https://gazetteer.linz.govt.nz/place/55840
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are your names with macrons in the gazetteer?  If so, the "name"
>>>>>>> should contain the macron.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Care to share an example of the edit war?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Eliot
>>>>>>> ewblen
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Talk-nz mailing list
>>>>>>> Talk-nz at openstreetmap.org
>>>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nz
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Talk-nz mailing list
>>> Talk-nz at openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nz
>>>
>>
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