[Talk-nz] Place names

Michael Stark michael60634 at gmail.com
Fri Nov 19 22:05:20 UTC 2021

Does anyone else want to share their opinion?

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 11:46 PM Mike Kittridge <mgkittridge at gmail.com>

> Just because a word is used in English-language media doesn't mean that
> it's English.
> The example Kyle used (when saying it made no sense) was name=Taupō +
> name:en=Taupo. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Taupō is the Te Reo word for
> the English name Taupo. This is the case for all kinds of latin and
> germanic languages. For example Québec and Quebec. Québec is the French
> name and Quebec is the english name. Again, just because in speech and
> media we may sometimes mix languages doesn't mean that all of it becomes
> english.
> It's tricky in NZ because the the written Te Reo language was derived from
> English, so it becomes quite tempting to consider one as the other.
> With that said, if you've got an official NZ english language link that
> states that macrons are part of the NZ english written language, then I
> agree that macrons should be included. That really should be the decision
> maker ;)
> On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 5:13 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> I agree with Kyle here. If a name is commonly and consistently written
>> with the macrons in English-language media, signs, documents, etc, then I
>> think it's fair to say that the name in English does indeed include a
>> macron.
>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 9:10 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> I disagree that the general name wiki page needs to be updated. I
>>> believe it is common knowledge that local mapping practices take priority
>>> over the general mapping practices. If someone really cared about which
>>> spelling to use and wanted to find a country-specific spelling guideline,
>>> it's not hard to find the NZ wiki page.
>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 8:22 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Seeing that there is overwhelming consensus in favor of using macrons
>>>> for the "name" tag, the wiki pages that Eliot mentioned should be updated.
>>>> However, I do have a question regarding the "name:en" tag. Should macrons
>>>> be used there? I ask because the names with macrons are used in English, so
>>>> in a way it can be considered the English name, but at the same time,
>>>> English itself doesn't use macrons.
>>>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 9:56 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I disagree that using the official spelling even though an outdated
>>>>> sign has a different spelling represents an ideal world and not reality. If
>>>>> the name change was something significantly different from the common name
>>>>> or what is displayed on signs, for example Port Elizabeth being renamed
>>>>> to Gqeberha, then I do agree that the name on the signs should be used.
>>>>> However, the addition to a macron is not vastly different from what is
>>>>> shown on signs. And I would argue that the spelling with macrons would be
>>>>> the common name as it is most commonly used by government and businesses.
>>>>> As for the last part, I do understand kiwiAs's concern, but I have not
>>>>> seen anyone harassing anyone. So far there have been one or two dissenting
>>>>> opinions, but I have not seen anything rude, accusatory, or hateful written
>>>>> here. In fact, it was kiwiAs that twice accused me of trying to push a
>>>>> political or social agenda because I favor the use of the official
>>>>> spelling, which includes macrons.
>>>>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 9:30 PM Mike Kittridge <mgkittridge at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> That sounds totally reasonable. As I said in an earlier email, it
>>>>>> seems like a very reasonable interpretation of the official OSM wiki that
>>>>>> the name tag should be what's on the ground and sign posted.
>>>>>> And I do hope people are not actually harassing him about this. It's
>>>>>> a real pity that people who are trying to contribute and follow the
>>>>>> recommended guidelines are afraid to have open discussions because of fear
>>>>>> of harassment.
>>>>>> If the OSM contributors generally want to use the official gazetteer
>>>>>> name when sign posts seem incorrect, then that's fine. We'll just need to
>>>>>> make that clear in some NZ specific OSM wiki page that can be referenced.
>>>>>> And I know this may seem odd, but my understanding of why the name
>>>>>> tag (and most other OSM tags) is meant to represent what's "on the ground"
>>>>>> is because OSM is meant to represent the current state of what's on the
>>>>>> ground, and not some idealised state. If a sign is literally misspelled,
>>>>>> then the tag for that sign should have the misspelled name. Once the sign
>>>>>> has been fixed and is spelled correctly, then the tag should be updated to
>>>>>> represent that.
>>>>>> I know in practice this may be an unnecessary waste of time to keep
>>>>>> changing tags back and forth, but I just want people to understand the
>>>>>> reasoning behind it and that people like kiwiAs aren't just harboring some
>>>>>> racist hatred.
>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 4:02 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I asked kiwiAs again if they would join the discussion, and this was
>>>>>>> the reply:
>>>>>>> "No, I won’t be taking part in the discussion on the mailing list,
>>>>>>> for two reasons. First, participating in the mailing list discussion will
>>>>>>> reveal my email address, increasing the likelihood that I’ll undergo future
>>>>>>> online harassment (by fanatics pushing the macron agenda) - something that
>>>>>>> has happened in the past, which forced me to change my OSM username. But
>>>>>>> second, despite what people might thing, I really don’t care all that much
>>>>>>> about this. I just care about following the rules. In this case, OSM’s
>>>>>>> documented rule for the “name” tag, which clearly states that it should
>>>>>>> follow the ‘on the ground’ rule. But should that rule change in the future
>>>>>>> (and be clearly documented, like the current rule), then I’ll follow
>>>>>>> whatever the new rule says."
>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 1:03 AM Michael Stark <
>>>>>>> michael60634 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I wanted to mention that I did share the Talk-NZ link with kiwiAs
>>>>>>>> so they can join the discussion here. I'm not sure if they will join, but I
>>>>>>>> did share the link.
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 9:38 PM Michael Stark <
>>>>>>>> michael60634 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I am aware of the difference of "de jure" and "de facto". However,
>>>>>>>>> in this case, with most organisations using the de jure name, it is
>>>>>>>>> therefore the de facto common name.
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 5:17 PM Andrew Douglas-Clifford <
>>>>>>>>> adouglasclifford at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I agree, the name tag should reference the official place name
>>>>>>>>>> wherever possible, this includes the use of macrons. That has been my
>>>>>>>>>> consistent approach.
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>> Andrew
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 12:13 Eliot Blennerhassett <
>>>>>>>>>> eliot at blennerhassett.gen.nz> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/11/21 11:56, Michael Stark wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> > Should place names include macrons in the "name" tag? I'm
>>>>>>>>>>> trying to get some sort of consensus as one user keeps edit warring with
>>>>>>>>>>> myself and others. DWG is unwilling to step in do anything.
>>>>>>>>>>> Certainly macrons are part of some official place names.
>>>>>>>>>>> E.g. Tāmaki https://gazetteer.linz.govt.nz/place/55840
>>>>>>>>>>> Are your names with macrons in the gazetteer?  If so, the "name"
>>>>>>>>>>> should contain the macron.
>>>>>>>>>>> Care to share an example of the edit war?
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Eliot
>>>>>>>>>>> ewblen
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Talk-nz mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Talk-nz at openstreetmap.org
>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nz
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Talk-nz mailing list
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