[talk-ph] [SPAM] Re: Philippine multilingual place names (English/native language)

Thu Aug 24 09:21:33 UTC 2017

I would like to chime in here. I agree with Eugene - I don't think listing 
multiple names in the name=* tag is a good practice, maybe except in a few 
very specific cases where it is hard to say whether a name is actually a 
common name even in English texts, but I don't think there should be many of 
those cases, if any. Tagalog should be avoided completely in non-Tagalog areas 
(and even those that were *originally* non-tagalog, as place names tend to lag 
far behind language shifts).
It makes good sense to use the English name as default, as Eugene mentioned, 
it is an official language, and it doesn't bear the same political connotation 
as the use of Tagalog. Of course, English is not the native language either; 
Cebuano, Ilocano, Kapampangan, etc. are. I find though that many place names 
are used in their English form even by locals - with exceptions of course.
Eugene's suggestion to use native form "when the native form is overwhelmingly 
used even in English texts" makes perfect sense to me. There's no point 
translating a commonly used name to English. I can think of a few, like 
"Pulung Maragul" in Angeles, which in Kapampangan means "Big Island" - a name 
nobody would recognize, or "Patio" in Magalang - which is the Town Plaza, but 
everyone of course calls it Patio. Or Cong Dadong Dam - I have never heard 
anyone call it anything else. Even kids who do not speak English calls it "dam".
At least in Pampanga, which is the place I know, everybody including locals 
refer to the road names as "___ Road" or "___ Street", not "Dalan ___", which 
would be the local name, and certain natural places like a water fall is 
referred to by locals as "___ Falls", not to mention "Mount Arayat", which is 
technically "Bunduk Arayat" in Kapampangan, but most people use the English 
name, so using English as default here seems perfectly logical.

That said, from a linguistic heritage point of view, I would prefer if roads 
in Pampanga would be called "Dalan Arayat", etc. instead of "Arayat Road", and 
similar in other areas with other languages, but this is simply not the case, 
and maps should reflect reality, so personal preference is not relevant here.

It must be said that I neither am nor look like a Filipino, so people may 
choose to use English names around me for that reason, but given that I 
generally speak Kapampangan (with a great number of grammatical mistakes, I'm 
sure, but still) when in Pampanga, I don't think this is much of a problem. 
Still worth considering.

In essence, the priority list could be:
1. Commonly used local name (even in English texts)
2. In the absence of the above, English

Ref:
Pulung Maragul:  http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/963007863
Patio, Magalang: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/28855819
Cong Dadong Dam: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/262208377

Another thing to consider - what about places and roads officially named after 
politicians (typically), but which name locals have not adopted (and perhaps 
never will)? I would tend to prefer the name actually in use, ignoring the 
"official" name.
One pretty prominent example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/312897853
I think it's officially named Diosdado Macapagal International Airport, but I 
have yet to hear a single person refer to it as anything but "Clark".

Ronny.

On 2017-08-23 14:03, ianlopez wrote:
> In a lot of cases, I'm going with the "what locals call it" plus "official 
> name" rule of thumb when using the name=* tag, aside from the numerous name:xx 
> tags used in mapping the Philippines. Aside from Eugene's examples, another 
> specific case would be Taal, Batangas where the street names in its poblacion 
> area are appended with "Calle" instead of "Street".
> 
> 
> -----
> Blog: http://ianlopez1115.wordpress.com/
> OpenStreetMap/Twitter: ianlopez1115
> Facebook: ian.lopez
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Eugene Alvin Villar <seav80 at gmail.com>
> *To:* Jherome Miguel <jheromemiguel at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* talk-ph <talk-ph at openstreetmap.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:10 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [talk-ph] Philippine multilingual place names (English/native 
> language)
> 
> On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 9:23 AM, Jherome Miguel <jheromemiguel at gmail.com 
> <mailto:jheromemiguel at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
>     It already looks important to have place names under the name= tag be
>     bilingual or multilingual, not just in English, especially when taking
>     regard speakers of native languages (Tagalog, Cebuano, Hiligaynon,
>     Kapampangan, Ilocano, etc.), and use of native. I am proposing a scheme
>     where the name under the place tag would have English as first name, and
>     second name in the Tagalog (usually formal), and the third name in the
>     native language (on places other than those in Tagalog speaking areas)
> 
> 
> [Oops. Sent too early.]
> 
> So in essence, you want to propose something like what is done in Belgium?
> 
> I don't agree. I want the name=* to use just a single name, defaulting to 
> English as much as possible (since English is an official language of the 
> Philippines) and avoiding Tagalog/Filipino because that is a sensitive issue 
> outside of native Tagalog-speaking areas.
> 
> The only time we will use non-native English names is when the native form is 
> overwhelmingly used even in English texts such as in English news articles, 
> English books, and English academic papers. For example, in practically every 
> English news article about the Marcos burial issue, every news outlet used the 
> name "Libingan ng mga Bayani" instead of "Cemetery of Heroes" or "Heroes' 
> Cemetery". So name=Libingan ng mga Bayani is used. This goes for other places 
> such as "Liwasang Bonifacio" (not "Bonifacio Park" or "Bonifacio Square" or 
> "Bonifacio Plaza"), "Malacañang sa Sugbo" (not "Malacañang in Cebu"), "Paseo 
> de Roxas" (not "Roxas Path"), "Zamboanga del Norte" (not "Northern 
> Zamboanga"), etc.
> 
> ~Eugene
> 
> 
> 
> 
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